Not enough bow....

[joel kelsey]

Ladles and Jellyspoons,
I am not using enough bow and my sound is suffering. I practice scales in whole notes in front of the mirror, and I work hard on using the whole bow. The visual aspect is really helping me, however I am still struggling when I play faster passages and or when crossing the strings. Any advice? I am very uncoordinated and I am looking for some simple exercises to help feel/hear using the whole bow.
Thanks
Joel

[Eli_Upright12]

make sure your using bow planes effectively. So when pulling a down bow you need the bow to be pulling and the left side of the string and on up bows on the right side. This means the bow needs to tilt to get the proper approach. Its hard to explain but if you watch most players you can see how they tilt there bows. Its really hard to help with bow related question with out being able to demonstrate, but I'm sure people will help.

[jallenbass]

Well, fast playing and string crossings require a lot less bow. Saying that your sound is suffering from not enough bow is probably a red herring. What about the amount of weight you put into the bow and the sounding point (the place on the string that the bow is contacting)? How about some more details?

[joel kelsey]

Well, when I play scales or arrpegios with 3 or 4 notes to a bow, my sound seems to suffer. I was at a lesson today, and my teacher showed me how much better my sound could be by helping me draw the bow while I played. He seemed to think that using more bow would help me get a better sound (especially in the higher register). For some reason, the higher the pitch, the less bow I use. I am also working on bow planes. It seems like the faster I have to play something, the worse my sound is.....

[jallenbass]

Not hearing and seeing you play I would venture to say that you need to have a good focused sound when drawing the bow slowly. I agree with your teacher that you need more bow (and this is a relative term) when you play higher. But that needs to come from a foundation of drawing a focused and open sound from a slow bow. The other thing that I usually see is right hand tension, especially as the speed and/or complexity of the passage increases. If your right hand is relaxed when you play slowly then you need to have that same feeling when going faster. From my experience, using more bow when playing fast leads to right hand tension.

[Stan Haskins]

Sevcik.

[EggyToast]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

Well, when I play scales or arrpegios with 3 or 4 notes to a bow, my sound seems to suffer. I was at a lesson today, and my teacher showed me how much better my sound could be by helping me draw the bow while I played. He seemed to think that using more bow would help me get a better sound (especially in the higher register). For some reason, the higher the pitch, the less bow I use. I am also working on bow planes. It seems like the faster I have to play something, the worse my sound is.....

A lot of this is training to understand how much bow you need to use to get a certain sound, or to play a certain passage. I tracked down this (now old) email from my teacher. I think he was talking to be about it in late 2006, maybe early 2007?

" I remembered why I had told you to use less bow speed two lessons
ago. It was because you weren't putting enough weight into the string
and were getting a wispy sound without getting the string moving much.
So I had you slow the bow down so you could get the bow to grab the
string more. You were grabbing the string well yesterday. I hope
that makes sense."

That was because he had told me to use more bow, and I said "but you just told me to use less."

[joel kelsey]

Originally Posted by Stan Haskins

Sevcik.

Please hip me. I know not of what you speak.

[MDEbass]

ok...I don't want to be another one of those people who just say "Get a Teacher," but this is really something that you need to get help with in person. If you have a teacher, get help from him/her and go with what advice he/she gives you. If you don't have a teacher, it really is necessary to have one to learn proper playing technique, especially with stuff that can be tricky to learn like this. The tips people have posted here is good. Good luck

[Jeremy Darrow]

Here's a link to George Vance's transcription of Sevcik:

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/le...ctinfo/SLA038/

When I'm warming up I set my metronome at 60 bpm. I play open string half notes long using the entire bow, then dotted halfs, then whole notes etc until I'm playing 12-15 beat long tones. Then I start shortening the duration, one beat at a time until I'm playing quarter notes at 60 using the whole bow. I've tried starting with quarter notes, but I need to be warmed up before I can even hope to get a good tone at that bow speed. This exercise has helped me to use more bow, it could help you too.

Jeremy

[Stan Haskins]

I'm sure the Vance edition is great. Haven't seen it myself.

If you're so inclined, here's a link to a link to the Reinke edition of Sevcik for bass.
Yeah, it's best done with a teacher - I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten the point if I tried to figure it out myself.

[joel kelsey]

Originally Posted by MDEbass

ok...I don't want to be another one of those people who just say "Get a Teacher," but this is really something that you need to get help with in person. If you have a teacher, get help from him/her and go with what advice he/she gives you. If you don't have a teacher, it really is necessary to have one to learn proper playing technique, especially with stuff that can be tricky to learn like this. The tips people have posted here is good. Good luck

wow. Thanks for the help. Getting a teacher never occured to me..... Seriously though, I have a teacher. I can only get lessons once or twice a month because he lives out of town (doing the two teacher thing has not worked for me). I am not a very good classical player but I work hard at it. I started this thread to ask for general advice from classical players who know more than I do, so that I can improve between lessons. In the future, please don't post if you aren't going to post something helpful.

Anywho, thanks to those that have left actual advice. What are your thoughts on right hand tension? How tightly do you think one should grip the bow? How do you think right hand tension affects the sound?
Thanks

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

How tightly do you think one should grip the bow? How do you think right hand tension affects the sound?
Thanks

Hold the bow as if it were an egg.

The affect of a tight right hand is a little complicated. Rigid tension in the right hand produces a harsh, rough sound and not at all full. One can play with a stronger grip as long as it's flexible like a spring. I usually start people with the most relaxed grip possible. The best thing that I was taught to learn this was to let only the weight of the bow sit on the string as you play. This is hard because we want to compensate for the quieter sound towards the tip. That's OK. Just let it be for now. Use enough sticky rosin to overcome you need to press into the string to make sound. Think of moving a wooden train on its tracks by holding the caboose. Pushing down or holding tihgter does no better at moving the train. After that they can learn to put weight into the string thereby firming their grip a little.

[thedbassist]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

wow. Thanks for the help. Getting a teacher never occured to me..... Seriously though, I have a teacher. I can only get lessons once or twice a month because he lives out of town (doing the two teacher thing has not worked for me). I am not a very good classical player but I work hard at it. I started this thread to ask for general advice from classical players who know more than I do, so that I can improve between lessons. In the future, please don't post if you aren't going to post something helpful.

Anywho, thanks to those that have left actual advice. What are your thoughts on right hand tension? How tightly do you think one should grip the bow? How do you think right hand tension affects the sound?
Thanks

Whoa, MDEbass was just trying to be helpful. You'd be surprised how many bassists without teachers come on here asking questions that a teacher could easily ask.

Back to your question, I would recommend trying out playing twinkle twinkle little star(in all of Rabbath's six positions). The reason for playing twinkle twinkle is it allows you greater freedom to experiment with things like weight, bow speed, bow placement(only focus on one thing each time you play twinkle) since it is a simple piece. Also, when you're playing twinkle it's a good time to focus on your body in relation to the bass and to focus on releasing any tension. When you play twinkle, you should focus on experimenting on all of those aspects for each position then move onto the next position, it's more systematic that way and gives you a better understanding of the fingerboard since you play in every position and equal number of times. It would be a good idea imo to print out all of these aspects(from a word type document) of playing and put it on the stand to make it more organized.

I don't "grip" the bow, I just hold-or cradle- it. I aim for playing everything with complete relaxation and ease, and having any tension will not help your playing. A good way to test if you're tense or not is to feel if the muscle under your thumb is tense or if it is relaxed and soft.

Watch this video and tell me if it ever looks like he has any tension: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frGLSf0gMNw

I don't think would Rabbath would have such a free sound if his hand(and body) weren't completely relaxed. Also, keep in mind that your bow speed shouldn't change as you play faster, you just use less bow than you would for longer note values.

[joel kelsey]

Originally Posted by thedbassist

Whoa, MDEbass was just trying to be helpful. You'd be surprised how many bassists without teachers come on here asking questions that a teacher could easily ask.

Yeah, your right. Perhaps I was a bit snippy. It seemed like he just read my initial post and then just dismissed my question without reading any further posts or checking my profile.

I have been working on using as little tension as possible when holding the bow. Sometimes my thumb comes off for some reason. My teacher has gone as far as to tape it down. It seems like I naturally do everything wrong with the bow. I appreciate everyone's responses. It never fails to amaze me how little I know about playing bass.

[thedbassist]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

Yeah, your right. Perhaps I was a bit snippy. It seemed like he just read my initial post and then just dismissed my question without reading any further posts or checking my profile.

I have been working on using as little tension as possible when holding the bow. Sometimes my thumb comes off for some reason. My teacher has gone as far as to tape it down. It seems like I naturally do everything wrong with the bow. I appreciate everyone's responses. It never fails to amaze me how little I know about playing bass.

You might want to try a bow rubber, it helps with giving your thumb a soft pad to mesh with and your thumb won't slide. I use one and so do a lot of other bassists: http://www.slavapub.net/Other-Rubber_Tubing.html

[David Potts]

I am a long-time French bow user but the basic principles of French and German Bow use are not far apart in my view.

I copied the following from my response to Goodgig, 04-19-2008 re Bow Arm Weight.

"For me natural weight means weight of the arm resting on the strings through the hook formed by first finger and thumb of the bow hold. With nothing, no "crane muscles," on top of the arm holding back. To me this produces a nice earthy tone by bending the hair around the string and suppressing some of the upper partials, and sounds no more than about mf.

To use this weight smoothly and effectively from end to end of the bow without lifting I rotate the elbow up and out slightly which turns the bow hold in and throws weight forward onto the index finger. Only a few degrees, in order to align the elbow (hinge joint) movement with the bow direction. This works well for ON STRING playing.

For OFF STRING and SEMI-OFF playing I lower the elbow until bow hold fingers are parallel with the stick and I can "pat" the string with a shallow carried bounce. This works well near the balance point of the bow, that magic place that makes string crossing easy, and produces nice warm quaver speeds that I call "Haydn/Mozart" (try the opening of Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik).

SPICCATO could be as far out as the middle of the bow and require a different approach again because the string is more struck with a steeper "vee" shape by rotating the bow around the thumb. Generally bass players are allowed to produce spiccato closer to the balance point because our strings are so heavy.

So, my bow hold keeps changing according to the demands of the music. Three big variables come into play - bow speed, weight and contact point - also take into account which string you are playing on (the heavier the string the slower the bow)

The further you bow from the bridge the faster the bow must move to support and drive the vibrations. I prefer to bow closer, say near half way between fingerboard and bridge where the string is stiffer, and use a little more weight with a slightly slower bow. I listen for resonance, tone and projection while encouraging free movement of the strings even though the weight of my arm is bending the hair around them and controlling them.

Try this experiment. Wrap your fist around the frog. Crush the bow down on the D string and slowly draw a screeching BUT EVEN sounding down bow (like drawing your fingernails down the blackboard at school, remember!). Repeat this again and again, gradually reducing the weight and you will start to hear the note come out, still hopelessly crushed, from under the bow. Finally the full beautiful tone will emerge, the string will be moving freely and the bow hair will still be bent around the string!! Then go to the proper bow hold and copy. This is my model sound that I try to apply to all notes, all strings, as a starting point in sound production.

I do believe in using the natural weight of the arm for on-string playing. How I set my bow and bow arm to achieve this would take much more space to explain."

The open heavy E string vibrates at 41.7 times per second (?) and uses much less bow speed and length, maybe flatter hair and a little more weight , and some care with contact point to produce clear rich projected sounds. Faster notes progressively shorten the bow length and move the bow towards the end of the fingerboard.

Conversely, the G string requires faster longer bow with less pressure and staying away from the end of the fingerboard to produce the same clarity and projection.

As you progress up each string towards the higher positions you should maintain approximately the same ratio of contact point to string length. For example, if you bow 6 inches from the bridge for open G then bow 3 inches away for octave G. You can tweak bow speed, length and weight, and angle of hair to produce more control of sound.

If you do not move the contact point up progressively as you finger higher you must compensate by moving the bow faster and faster to support the faster string vibrations. Even so the sound becomes less focussed. Never play near the end of the fingerboard on the G string _ sound collapses too easily!

Another useful exercise is to start playing a really comfortable note, say C on A string, "on" the string with full bow length and clear rich sound. Gradually speed up the bow strokes, keeping the same quality and clarity of sound by progressively shortening the bow lengths with a little more weight until you are using about 2 inches of bow for 16th notes at 1/4 = 80. The magic place to contract to is the balance point of the bow. Then reverse the procedure, expanding to full bows as you slow down. The bow can be quite firmly on the string, not lifting at each end, because the vibrations of the bass body soften note endings so long as you keep playing. Listen for clear musical nicely separated detache sounds. Too short movements produce grunts without tone and too long produces fluffy scrubbing sounds. The aim is to play confidently hard on the the string clearly at any speed with no bow lift, just flat sideways movements. Then add in timing coordination and shifting while maintaining this clarity.

Best wishes

DP
.

[Eli_Upright12]

One thing I saw in a master class with Diana Gannett(Yeah I know she's a German player, but she teaches everything), is she asked one of the players to trying playing and take off the first finger on the right hand. She said that in essence the french grip is mostly the second finger and thumb, and the others are there for support and stability. Try playing with the first finger off of the thumb if you want to try it on German bow. It really makes you have to pull with your back and have you right hand grip light, stable and flexible.

[David Potts]

Eli, Isaac Newton was a smart guy. He worked out three systems of levers. Whether German or French bow, we use his third and weakest. The Thumb (French) or side of hand (German) is the fulcrum around which the bow rotates. The Work is where the bowhair rests on the string and the Lever is the index finger (French) or thumb and finger(s) (German). The hook formed between lever and fulcrum carries the arm weight down onto the string (which stops the bow rotating). The amount of leverage is controlled by the distance between fulcrum and lever.

As you describe it, using second finger and thumb alone would give almost no leverage and a pianissimo sound? In the meantime you screw yourself up with unwanted tension while working like a dog!!

Hmmm.......

DP

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by David Potts

Eli, Isaac Newton was a smart guy. He worked out three systems of levers. Whether German or French bow, we use his third and weakest. The Thumb (French) or side of hand (German) is the fulcrum around which the bow rotates. The Work is where the bowhair rests on the string and the Lever is the index finger (French) or thumb and finger(s) (German). The hook formed between lever and fulcrum carries the arm weight down onto the string (which stops the bow rotating). The amount of leverage is controlled by the distance between fulcrum and lever.

As you describe it, using second finger and thumb alone would give almost no leverage and a pianissimo sound? In the meantime you screw yourself up with unwanted tension while working like a dog!!

Hmmm.......

DP

I would agree with everything except using the first finger and thumb as the fulcrum where I would have to respectfully disagree. and of the fingers could act as the fulcrum with the thumb, but it makes most sense at least in my mind to use the second finger, because it is finger that is most centered in you hand. It is also longer and probably stronger as a result than the other fingers. It is the same in most german grips where the middle finger and pinkie are the only fingers really anchored to the bow.