Orchestral Education at a Solo School?

[Eli_Upright12]

What are peoples thoughts on whether its possible to get a great orchestral skill set from a school/professor that is mainly know for the solo students they have produced? I know anything is possible, but maybe we should use the word feasible or likely.

[CTakacs]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

What are peoples thoughts on whether its possible to get a great orchestral skill set from a school/professor that is mainly know for the solo students they have produced? I know anything is possible, but maybe we should use the word feasible or likely.

Sure it's possible. I'm at U of M studying with Diana, but I am getting just as much orchestra experience as I am with solo playing. There is even an orchestra rep class here led by the assistant principal of Detroit Symphony Orchestra. Although the techniques involved in solo and orchestra are rather different, I feel it is very beneficial here to get a sense of both styles of playing. I know I'm only speaking from a Michigan standpoint, but students here have also gotten first stand at top noch festivals, continued at grad schools like Juiliard, and gotten great performance opportunities. Also, if you still feel like you're not getting enough orchestral experience, there's always summer festivals too.

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by CTakacs

Sure it's possible. I'm at U of M studying with Diana, but I am getting just as much orchestra experience as I am with solo playing. There is even an orchestra rep class here led by the assistant principal of Detroit Symphony Orchestra. Although the techniques involved in solo and orchestra are rather different, I feel it is very beneficial here to get a sense of both styles of playing. I know I'm only speaking from a Michigan standpoint, but students here have also gotten first stand at top noch festivals, continued at grad schools like Juiliard, and gotten great performance opportunities. Also, if you still feel like you're not getting enough orchestral experience, there's always summer festivals too.

Great, Michigan is actually one of the main schools I was referring to and it is one of the two schools I really want to go to. The studio gets regular orchestral rep classes with Stephen Molina, right? Do you study much in terms of excerpts and orchestral bow techniques with Diana?

[Eli_Upright12]

any thoughts from anyone else?

[neilG]

I don't think there's any such thing as a "solo" or "orchestral" school. No good teacher in their right mind grooms a double bassist exclusively for a solo career, and no good teacher has zero experience in orchestral playing.

Go with a teacher you like in a school that has a good reputation and a decent number of bass students. Having players around you who play as well or better than you on any given day is of immense value.

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by neilG

I don't think there's any such thing as a "solo" or "orchestral" school. No good teacher in their right mind grooms a double bassist exclusively for a solo career, and no good teacher has zero experience in orchestral playing.

True, but there are definitely schools known for producing good soloists and ones known for there orchestral players. Along with this comes the teaching style; different bowing exercises produce different playing strengths.

[professorslinky]

Originally Posted by CTakacs

but students here have also gotten first stand at top noch festivals, continued at grad schools like Juiliard, and gotten great performance opportunities.

How many have won jobs?

[neilG]

Originally Posted by professorslinky

How many have won jobs?

I don't necessarily see that as a measure of success of a teacher or school. There are about 50 full-time orchestras in the US, each with maybe 8 bassists. That's about only about 400 players making a living, or a partial living (some salaries are in the low 20K range) in full-time orchestras.

There have to be as many or more players free-lancing who are also making a living. Here in the LA area I can personally name almost 50 bassists who are working outside of the LA Phil. Some never wanted to be in full-time orchestras. At Juilliard alone, there are at least 24 bass students at any one time. They can't all be in orchestras after graduation.

If playing in a major symphony is your goal, you should indeed find the teachers who have put the most students there, but it's not the only measure of the worth of a teacher.

[kpo]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

What are peoples thoughts on whether its possible to get a great orchestral skill set from a school/professor that is mainly know for the solo students they have produced? I know anything is possible, but maybe we should use the word feasible or likely.

Okay, using your terms, I think the *Likelihood* of getting good orchestra training is much higher if you go to people and places where that is a main priority. A teacher with lots of orchestral experience makes a BIG difference in getting orchestral training.

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by kpo

Okay, using your terms, I think the *Likelihood* of getting good orchestra training is much higher if you go to people and places where that is a main priority. A teacher with lots of orchestral experience makes a BIG difference in getting orchestral training.

thanks for the insight, but most of these professors have orchestral experience at one level or another whether its a chamber orchestra or maybe not a big name orchestra. Its hard because the most productive orchestral schools only take a handful of players each year and there are plenty of great professors that will give you an excellent, but maybe different kind of bass education. Not everyone can get into Rice, Indiana, Curtis and BU afterall.

[koricancowboy]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

thanks for the insight, but most of these professors have orchestral experience at one level or another whether its a chamber orchestra or maybe not a big name orchestra. Its hard because the most productive orchestral schools only take a handful of players each year and there are plenty of great professors that will give you an excellent, but maybe different kind of bass education. Not everyone can get into Rice, Indiana, Curtis and BU afterall.

That may be so, but there are many other people to study with. Owen Lee did not go to any of those schools, he went to USC and studied with Dennis Trembly and got his job as Principal of Cincinatti (sp?) Kate Nettleman went to Juilliard and Yale she just won the Minneosota job, as well as countless other players who did not go to those four other schools. The point is there are a lot of orchestra players in the us at great schools with great orchestras winning jobs, Matt Heller in Calgary anybody?

I agree with KPO. I will even say this, if you want to win an orchestra audition study with someone who has. How can someone who hasn't won one tell you how to do it? Auditions are brutal!! Prepare yourself if thats what you wanna do. Study with an orchestra winner. Especially a major orchestra if you can. Just my 2¢.

[kpo]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

thanks for the insight, but most of these professors have orchestral experience at one level or another whether its a chamber orchestra or maybe not a big name orchestra. ... Not everyone can get into Rice, Indiana, Curtis and BU afterall.

You're right, that you can still get a fair amount from a bassist not in a major orchestra, and you're right that most bassists aren't going to win one of those Big Jobs and will still find good work as a bassist, musician and educator.

The trick is, most of us *want* to play in an orchestra, the best one we can get in (and some sort of paycheck is nice, too), so if you're not personally trying to be an "Orchestra Guy", but instead hoping to get a good university teaching spot, know that YOU still should get as good an orchestral training as you can, 'cause your future students sure will want the same, but they'll be trying to get it from YOU!

And, hey, Eli_Upright12, howdy to the MadTown crowd. I don't think I know many folks up there anymore, but I sure do miss WI.

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by kpo

The trick is, most of us *want* to play in an orchestra, the best one we can get in

And, hey, Eli_Upright12, howdy to the MadTown crowd. I don't think I know many folks up there anymore, but I sure do miss WI.

I do want to get into a good orchestra after my undergrad or perhaps after my post grad, but I'm not a super refined orchestral player at this point, I think I have the potential and the drive to be that player. The problem is I dont think I currently have the skill set that any of those big name universities want. So I guess the other thing I'm asking is with my solo playing some what carrying me right now, can I go to a school, work my tail off and set myself up for the future whether that will be grad school or an orchestra?

[kpo]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

I do want to get into a good orchestra after my undergrad or perhaps after my post grad, but I'm not a super refined orchestral player at this point, I think I have the potential and the drive to be that player. The problem is I dont think I currently have the skill set that any of those big name universities want.

Have you tried the "big name" universities? Go for it - can't get there if you don't try.

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

So I guess the other thing I'm asking is with my solo playing [somewhat] carrying me right now, can I go to a school, work my tail off and set myself up for the future whether that will be grad school or an orchestra?

If you want to get in an orchestra where you can make a living, you're going to have to work your tail off no matter what, so you might as well go somewhere that can help you find the "best" way to get where you want to go; a school that has experienced orchestral teachers - and it helps tons if the other students around you are also working for that same goal.

[showbusiness]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

What are peoples thoughts on whether its possible to get a great orchestral skill set from a school/professor that is mainly know for the solo students they have produced? I know anything is possible, but maybe we should use the word feasible or likely.

What teacher is known for the solo students they have produced?

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by showbusiness

What teacher is known for the solo students they have produced?

Gary Karr, for example or Diana Gannett who was discussed earlier, there are lots of great soloists that have become teachers and passed on their wealth of knowledge. Truthfully also the solo is a part of the audition, but in the end that is going to be the biggest factor.

[showbusiness]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

Gary Karr, for example or Diana Gannett who was discussed earlier, there are lots of great soloists that have become teachers and passed on their wealth of knowledge. Truthfully also the solo is a part of the audition, but in the end that is going to be the biggest factor.

The solo is important but it isn't the most important part of the audition. Proportionally it's only one of the many pieces you'll have to play on stage and you probably won't be playing as a soloist with the orchestra, whereas you will always be playing the bass parts of orchestral pieces. I'm pretty sure Gary Karr doesn't teach anymore, too and I don't know any of his students...

[koricancowboy]

Originally Posted by showbusiness

The solo is important but it isn't the most important part of the audition. Proportionally it's only one of the many pieces you'll have to play on stage and you probably won't be playing as a soloist with the orchestra, whereas you will always be playing the bass parts of orchestral pieces. I'm pretty sure Gary Karr doesn't teach anymore, too and I don't know any of his students...

Umm... Diana Gannett

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by koricancowboy

Umm... Diana Gannett

Daniel Nix, David Murray, and many many more

[kpo]

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

Umm, Dianna Gannet;....Daniel Nix, David Murray, and many many more

Is this the point at which I get to reveal that I was once a Gary Karr student also? I spent a 9-week summer in his class back when it was at the Johannessen School for the Arts in Victoria.

Gary is inspirational; his wisdom and style opened up whole new worlds of possibility in bass playing, but it took another seven years after that camp to temper that "solo-centered" style of playing with an "orchestral approach" in order to actually get an orchestra job. Worth noting.