Playing over the fingerboard

lloccmttocs · #1 05-29-2007, 09:11 PM

OK, so I know playing over the fingerboard is bad and creates bad tone. But I'm getting a new bass soon (when ever it gets finished) and it has the fingerboard extension. Now does that mean I play even lower or just play where I would normally play even though it gets rosin on the extension? My gut says just play it normally as if the extension wasn't there, but I figured I'd consult before I get into bad habits.

Eli_Upright12 · #2 05-29-2007, 09:56 PM

I would assume that it doesnt matter, because its not that the bow is over the fingerboard that is the problem it is its position relative to the bridge, but then again I have never played a bass with an extension. But it doesnt seem like a problem at all to me.

Cory Palmer · #3 05-29-2007, 10:45 PM

The length of the fingerboard isn't going to affect bow placement. You should always have your bow on a harmonic that is appropriate for the sound you want.

mcnaire2004 · #4 05-30-2007, 12:24 AM

Length of the finger board does not matter. The placement of the bow is determined by the distance between the note and the bridge.

If you watch Edgar Meyer play he plays over his extension all the time.

jdapodaca · #5 05-30-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

You should always have your bow on a harmonic that is appropriate for the sound you want.

Could you elaborate on this?

CT DB · #6 05-30-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

Could you elaborate on this?

+1

jsbarber · #7 05-30-2007, 11:12 AM

Instead of bowing lets look at pizzicato instead, but the same concept applies to arco. When you pluck a string you deform it from its equilibrium position and then release it, in rough terms. The vibration of the string is described in theory by a combination of all of the harmonics that the string contains, and there are an infinite number of them. But the relative strength of each harmonic, including the fundamental, depends on the shape of the initial deformation of the string. If you were to pluck an open string at the middle of the string you would get a strong contribution from the fundamental. If you were to pluck it close to the bridge you would get a relatively much stronger contribution from higher harmonics.

The location at which you bow determines the balance of harmonics that are present in the note you play. Up near the end of the fingerboard a note will contain a lot more fundamental than if it is played by the bridge. It also seems that you can play louder if you play closer to the bridge than to the end of the fingerboard. I'm not sure why. Maybe more of the energy is getting directed into more harmonics, but that is speculation.

Try bowing at different locations and listen to the tone of the notes.

Jim

Cory Palmer · #8 05-30-2007, 01:35 PM

I like jsbarber's description. I'll try to pick up where he left off.

When you are playing at different harmonics different overtones tend to come out. Playing on the octave and fifth harmonics will bring out the even overtones (octave, fourth, fifth) and playing on other harmonics like the thirds and sevenths will bring out odd overtones. I need to do some research and figure exactly what overtones each will bring out but that is the general idea.

If you play on the octave and fifth harmonics you will get a fuller, more pure sound.

Playing on different harmonics will get different colors too. If I am playing a pianissimo passage like the beginning of the third movement of Beethoven 5 I will start at the harmonic two octaves above my left hand. Then when that passage changes to forte I will move the bow to the harmonic a fifth above that. Sometimes I try to play at the harmonic three octaves above my left hand but that can be a little tougher to bring bring out consistently. Usually on older basses that 3 octave harmonic is easier to play on. I think because older instruments tend to be looser.

Maybe in some modern music playing on odd harmonics could be good but in most standard classical rep playing on the octave and fifth harmonics will be clearer.

The reason you can play louder closer to the bridge is because there is more tension closer to the bridge. The middle of the string (one octave harmonic) has the least amount of tension. As you move farther away from that center point in either direction you get more tension.

Cory Palmer · #9 05-30-2007, 01:41 PM

Also, the bow naturally rests at harmonics. If you are playing near a harmonic you will probably feel that your bow wants to move towards that harmonic. The bow wants to be perpendicular to the string when it is on a harmonic. If you keep you bow arm relaxed and don't force a certain bow angle the bow will naturally be straight.

jdapodaca · #10 05-30-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

I like jsbarber's description. I'll try to pick up where he left off.

When you are playing at different harmonics different overtones tend to come out. Playing on the octave and fifth harmonics will bring out the even overtones (octave, fourth, fifth) and playing on other harmonics like the thirds and sevenths will bring out odd overtones. I need to do some research and figure exactly what overtones each will bring out but that is the general idea.

If you play on the octave and fifth harmonics you will get a fuller, more pure sound.

Playing on different harmonics will get different colors too. If I am playing a pianissimo passage like the beginning of the third movement of Beethoven 5 I will start at the harmonic two octaves above my left hand. Then when that passage changes to forte I will move the bow to the harmonic a fifth above that. Sometimes I try to play at the harmonic three octaves above my left hand but that can be a little tougher to bring bring out consistently. Usually on older basses that 3 octave harmonic is easier to play on. I think because older instruments tend to be looser.

Maybe in some modern music playing on odd harmonics could be good but in most standard classical rep playing on the octave and fifth harmonics will be clearer.

The reason you can play louder closer to the bridge is because there is more tension closer to the bridge. The middle of the string (one octave harmonic) has the least amount of tension. As you move farther away from that center point in either direction you get more tension.

I know that when you bow at different locations, you get different tone colors. However, I'm confused about what you mean when you say "playing on harmonics." Do you mean, if the 3rd mvt of Beethoven 5 started on open E instead of G, you would place the bow on the E string, at the spot at which if you were to place your left hand on that spot, it would sound two octaves higher than open E?

If that's correct, that means you press down the G at the beginning of the 3rd mvt, you place your bow near where the G# harmonic two octaves above the open E would sound?

I think I'm really confused.

jsbarber · #11 05-30-2007, 06:48 PM

I think what Cory may be refering to when he says playing at, or on, a harmonic is bowing over the anti-node. The node is the spot(s) where there is no vibration, and the anti-nodes are the spots where the amplitude of vibration is maximal. They occur at the midpoint between two nodes.

A few weeks ago Adrian Cho started a thread on hitting a C-harmonic.

http://talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330173

I posted a PDF with some data on harmonics including the fraction of the string length from the bridge to the first node for a number of the lower harmonics in this thread. The distance to the anti-node would be half of the distance to the node.

Jim

Cory Palmer · #12 05-30-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

I know that when you bow at different locations, you get different tone colors. However, I'm confused about what you mean when you say "playing on harmonics." Do you mean, if the 3rd mvt of Beethoven 5 started on open E instead of G, you would place the bow on the E string, at the spot at which if you were to place your left hand on that spot, it would sound two octaves higher than open E?

If that's correct, that means you press down the G at the beginning of the 3rd mvt, you place your bow near where the G# harmonic two octaves above the open E would sound?

I think I'm really confused.

Yes that's what I mean. Whenever you stop the string with your left hand your are changing what the pitches of the harmonics are. So when you start the 3rd movement of Beethoven 5 you are stopping a G and putting the bow at the G two octaves above the stopped note. To test this out you can play a closed note then have someone else touch the harmonics and you can see how the harmonics change as the string length changes.

I think playing on the anti-nodes is what I am talking about. It would make sense that an anti-node would be where a harmonic is.

jsbarber · #13 05-30-2007, 11:05 PM

The G on the E-string near the nut is G1. The G one octave above is G2, and the second octave above is G3. When you finger G1 and place the bow over the fingering position for G3 you are bowing over one of the anti-nodes of G2. (This is also the node of G3.) It seems that bowing at this location with the left hand stopping G1 would increase the proportion of the G2 harmonic relative to G1 in the note that you hear.

Cory Palmer · #14 05-30-2007, 11:31 PM

So then would whatever harmonic I am over cause the note an octave below that to come out more? Say I am playing G1 and my bow is at D3 would that make D2 come out more?

jsbarber · #15 05-31-2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

So then would whatever harmonic I am over cause the note an octave below that to come out more? Say I am playing G1 and my bow is at D3 would that make D2 come out more?

The D3 node location that is closest to the bridge would be an anti-node for D2, so that would seem to be the case. All that is happening is that as you go up an octave the number of half-sine waves along the vibrating string length doubles. In the case you describe the D2 has 3 half-sine waves and the D3 has 6. The D2 will have two nodes in addition to your stopping finger (at G1) and the bridge, and D3 will have the same nodes as D2 plus three more. One of these is located at the location where you would stop a D3 with your left hand.

jdapodaca · #16 05-31-2007, 08:59 AM

This is making sense now. I think playing over harmonics happens sort of naturally, then, yes?

For, say, the Otello solo, would you still begin this with your bow two octaves above the open E? that would be a ways over the fingerboard. And if you started this with your bow at the G# or B harmonic, would that mean that more of the fundamental (G# or B) would be present? If one wanted to avoid this, would you start with the bow over E4 and get more of the E fundamental?

Dbass926 · #17 06-11-2007, 06:12 PM

Hey, sounds like another John Hood student!

jmears · #18 06-19-2007, 11:03 AM

I have been taught to bow an eighth of the distance between the bridge and where the string is stopped - either by the nut or the left hand. One can vary the tone if required by moving either side of this position.

Cory Palmer · #19 06-19-2007, 04:46 PM

That is the three octave harmonic.

CT DB · #20 06-21-2007, 03:32 PM

When I first read all the instructions in this thread to bow over certain harmonics, I admit it all sounded a bit picky. I tried it while practicing with the intention of posting here that it was too subtle to make a difference. As I played, though, I proved myself wrong. There is a substantially different tone when the bow is placed relative to the note stopped on the fingerboard.

This may be Bass 101, but I am self taught, and I am so appreciative to everyone who puts info on this board. Thanks.