Are position names important to know?

[AZNBassist]

Hey I'm not too sure if this is the right thread for this, so mods feel free to move this if necessary.

Anyways, the other day I was giving a lesson to a student who then asked a passing question about which position the first Eb on the G string would be. Suddenly it dawned upon me. Even though I've played simandl's 30 suite (or excercises?) book and studied with teachers who taught me the simandl method, I've never actually studied from the main book where he explains the positions of the fingerboard. Is this something really important that I'm missing and I should go back to? I mean I know where all the notes are, but I think of the fingerboard more like a fretboard rather than in positions. Do you guys think this is something important that I'm missing?

[JoeyNaeger]

I wouldn't worry about it.

[neilG]

I would think that a few minutes of study before the next lesson will take care of things.

[futurebass77]

ive been playing bass for about 5 years now, i still dont know the names of any position past third. Im ok with that....oh, i do know thumb

[Bill Bentgen]

It's "handy" to know. Instead of saying "first finger on E on the A string" you can just say "fourth position"

[mjt0229]

I don't know any position beyond half and first by name and don't feel guilty about it at all - however, I did use positions when I was learning the bass at first. It's probably worth learning them for purely pedagogical purposes, but I wouldn't push your students to learn them as an end in itself - only if you find that it helps you explain concepts to them.

If your student wants to know about positions, it's worth being able to help, but I wouldn't worry too much apart from that.

[bassist14]

i think the goal is to learn it, and then to forget it

[damonsmith]

I don't really use it. I learned it early on, now I just think of what group of notes I have instead.

[Cory Palmer]

There is no need to know position names since there are no universal position numbers. Simandl and Rabbath use different numbers and there are probably a few other common systems.

[TomGale]

Originally Posted by Bill Bentgen

It's "handy" to know. Instead of saying "first finger on E on the A string" you can just say "fourth position"

I thought about this for a long time while writing Practical Studies. I finally went with both with the nod to the note name. If your first finger is on A on the G string, I called it A position - 1st finger on C became the C position BUT as a nod to the traditional system. I wrote it as A (1) Position or C (111) position. The students immediately preferred the A or C - or D, etc. It skips one step in the mental process ("lets see - 4th position means 1st finger on D") and that can't be bad.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

[mjt0229]

Originally Posted by TomGale

I thought about this for a long time while writing Practical Studies. I finally went with both with the nod to the note name. If your first finger is on A on the G string, I called it A position - 1st finger on C became the C position BUT as a nod to the traditional system. I wrote it as A (1) Position or C (111) position. The students immediately preferred the A or C - or D, etc. It skips one step in the mental process ("lets see - 4th position means 1st finger on D") and that can't be bad.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

I like the idea of calling it 'A' position (although do you always use the 'G' string as a reference?). Also, I'm not sure I follow your notation of "C (111) position". What's the 111?

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Bill Bentgen

It's "handy" to know. Instead of saying "first finger on E on the A string" you can just say "fourth position"

The only problem with that is the person you're talking to probably doesn't know what "fourth position" simply cuz they forgot what it meant or didn't learn it in the first place, just like the original poster.

[TomGale]

Originally Posted by mjt0229

I like the idea of calling it 'A' position (although do you always use the 'G' string as a reference?). Also, I'm not sure I follow your notation of "C (111) position". What's the 111?

I used the G string reference to all positions. Otherwise you end up with a more complicated mess. EX: the string - maybe A and the note - maybe D so the position becomes A D position. A little much for beginners. 111 = 3rd position. 1V = 4th, etc. I think I should have used III in the post like I did in the book instead. My good.
Tom Gale

[Felessan]

Why don't we come up with a better system and popularize it? That'd be great.

I propose something like these:

#1 - "A on E" (play the A on the E string)

#2 - "G at A" (short for "G string at 'A' note"), then "G oct A" for the A one octave higher, "G high A" for the third octave 'A'.

Of course, this doesn't notate as easily as a plain old number.... but it does take up as much room as "sul G," which has been in use for hundreds of years.

Other options, anyone?

-Trevor

[kpo]

"Positions" are important to know, in that you should know what all your options across the strings are when you land on a first finger Eb - but when you are *LEARNING* the reference points, or when you have to *TALK* about them (as with teaching, or when posting on Talkbass when we should instead be practicing), it's very handy to have a codified system.

What many, many, *many*, many, many String Technique Books (not just bass!) use
is the *same* system
that appears in most Simandl printings: each note of a minor scale gets a position number... so on the g string, it'd be notes in g minor:

G open
A 1st
Bb 2nd
C 3rd
D 4th
Eb 5th
F 6th
g 7th, et cetera.

Any other note is some kind of position-and-a-half.

So on the CELLO they start with:

A open
B 1st
C 2nd
D 3rd... et cetera

On VIOLIN, it's:

E open
F# 1st
G 2nd
A 3rd... et cetera

For more, go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin half way down, to the "Playing" section.

The more intuitive, more-universal way is the one Tom Gale mentions, and that Barry Green championed in the 60s with his own very useful method book: whatever note your first finger is on, on the G string, that's the name of the position, all across the strings - no conflicting number systems to worry about!

It would seem, though, that for the sake of "tradition", or whatever(!), it's worth being familiar with the "old-school" method of fingering positions that all the string instruments have clearly been using for a looong while.

[TomGale]

[quote=kpo;5924221]
G open
A 1st
Bb 2nd
C 3rd
D 4th
Eb 5th
F 6th
g 7th, et cetera.

Any other note is some kind of position-and-a-half.

As I remember it (I haven't used in in many, many years), if the 4th finger (in the 1,2,4 closed hand tech) falls on an accidental, its a 1/2 position. Like 1st on B (4th falls on C#) its 2 1/2 position. 1st on C# (4th falls on D#) = 3 1/2 position, etc. I learned this 56 years ago and I thought it was dumb then. Still is.
Tom Gale

[BMason]

Well, if your student is learning a position structured method, you need to know the answers. I don't teach my students positions (besides half and first, just for simple reference) because I think a twelve year-old would malfunction with much more information than already present crammed into his head.

[David Potts]

Some sort of codified system, even related to the finishing notes of scales as in Simandl, is necessary for logically locating notes and building many fingering possibilities across as well as up and down strings. To me it is as important as the rest of our musical vocabulary of English Italian French and German words used to describe and understand the music we play.

It is hard to maintain a clear overview of how the fingerboard works and where notes lie in relation to one another as students progress up the finger board. I didn't know the origin of the naming of positions related to the one-string minor scale. Thanks, KPO!

Because I teach from the first section of Simandl Book One I stick with the old Half, First Second etc but also relate note places to "frets" because most students have seen a guitar. Once you go 5 frets up a string (2 1/2 tones or a 4th) you start to repeat notes already played on the next higher string. This helps maintain a clear understanding of the finger board layout and different fingering possibilities.

DP

[kpo]

[quote=TomGale;5924457]

Originally Posted by kpo

As I remember it (I haven't used in in many, many years), if the 4th finger (in the 1,2,4 closed hand tech) falls on an accidental, its a 1/2 position. Like 1st on B (4th falls on C#) its 2 1/2 position.
Tom Gale

That's an even *more* complicated way of thinking of it!!!!!

Too bad Simandl, et. al., never explained that the system was based on a scale - knowing the basis for the system would have "turned a few more lights on" instead of making people guess at how it was structured. Only a few method books (like Janos Starker's cello methods) bother to trace the history, application and "practicality" of fingering systems.

[TomGale]

[quote=kpo;5928323][quote=TomGale;5924457]

That's an even *more* complicated way of thinking of it!!!!!

I like the A position, D position, etc. better - no halfs or numbers to translate. And the way I did the neck fingerings, (avoiding labeling positions IV, V, V 1/2, and VI or 4, 5, 5 1/2, and 6) I think is easier to master - esp. a student that has enough to worry about. See a few headings below - fingering in the neck.
TG