Songs w/Arco. and Pizz.

[PRUNEFACE]

Hey, how are songs with bow arco and pizz played? Is the bow set down? I haven't started playing DB yet (or even purchased one for that matter) but I didn't quite understand what happens when you go literally right from the bowing to the plucking (without any rests in between the two styles) so some explainin' would be much appreciated.

[thedbassist]

Originally Posted by PRUNEFACE

Hey, how are songs with bow arco and pizz played? Is the bow set down? I haven't started playing DB yet (or even purchased one for that matter) but I didn't quite understand what happens when you go literally right from the bowing to the plucking (without any rests in between the two styles) so some explainin' would be much appreciated.

Most non-orchestral players use a quiver, so when they want to pizz they just drop their bow into the quiver and pick it back up when they want to switch back to arco. For orchestral players though, they usually just keep the bow in their hands while pizzing. There is usually some type of rest to accommodate the transfer though, if not you can always use left hand pizz(although it's weaker) for the transition time.

[Andrew Grandahl]

The manner in which you do this also depends on your bow hold. I find it to be easier to make a quick transition with a French bow, since you really don't have to change your grip much. Like thedbass said, left hand pizz is also useful, but unfortunately really only employable when plucking open strings.

[Andrew McGregor]

So, in orchestra, if you really have no time both bowholds let you get one finger to the string without dropping the bow. Otherwise you switch to a different hold that lets you put your bow aside and free your hand to do pizz properly; with german bow, you turn it around so it points back along your forearm towards your elbow, holding it between 3rd and 4th fingers and the palm. That can be done very quickly with a little practice. I must admit, I can't remember how you do that with french bow...

[EggyToast]

Or you get really fancy and toss the bow in the air, pizz a few notes, and then catch it -- with the proper hold.

[norcalsurfer]

This is a real problem for me. I am playing a chamber music piece where I must switch frequently from arco to pizz and back. I end up banging my bow against the instrument.

My teacher hasn't been able to help me because he plays German bow and play with French.

Any more advice. Surely there is a standard technique for the French bow?

[Dogbertday]

Originally Posted by norcalsurfer

This is a real problem for me. I am playing a chamber music piece where I must switch frequently from arco to pizz and back. I end up banging my bow against the instrument.

My teacher hasn't been able to help me because he plays German bow and play with French.

Any more advice. Surely there is a standard technique for the French bow?

I've always just palmed it... the bow then points up but holding it there with your middle ring and pinky fingers frees up your index and thumb

[Fletcher Lanning]

Originally Posted by Dogbertday

I've always just palmed it... the bow then points up but holding it there with your middle ring and pinky fingers frees up your index and thumb

+1

That's what I do as well. Just pull the bow back into your palm and hold it there with your third and forth fingers. It takes a bit of balancing (especially if you have a heavy bow like me) but can work for most things. It does tend to get in my way when if I have to play a really fast section, but most music that switches back from arco to pizz quickly probably isn't a fast bop line.

I do keep a quiver though, as putting my bow on my stand scares me.

[Les Fret]

Do you play the classical pizzicato only with your index finger or do you also play with two fingers?

And how far up do you point the bow when changing from arco to pizz?

I noticed that I don't point up the bow so much so I can go back faster to arco. I use a french bow.
I also saw someone who didn't change his bow grip. He just turned the hairs more inwards and without pointing the bow up at all. Therefore he was very quick at changing from arco to pizz. In this way it is only possible to play pizz with one finger.

[Fletcher Lanning]

Conceptually, I think of classical pizz and jazz pizz differently. Jazz is more about the attack, classical is focused on the entire note through the decay. It's much more of a whole arm motion than when I'm playing jazz. Watching a cello player play pizzicato will give you a better idea of what I mean (and will give you a better idea of the bow hold as they use basically the same bow). Worry less about the angle that the tip is pointing when you're palming it and focus on how secure it feels in your hand.

For me, the actual grip changes slightly depending on the situation. If I'm playing pizz for a long period of time then have only one or two arco notes, I will cheat a little when playing them (meaning I sacrifice perfect bow hold for those two notes in exchange for the ability to switch back to pizz quickly. Vice-versa, if there's only a couple pizz. notes you can concentrate more on your arco hold and just slide the bow into your palm a little for the pizz note.

I'm still a newer player but I'm posting because I recently had to spend a bunch of time figuring this out for a pops concert I played.

edit: to answer your first question I often use my second finger when playing pizz. in a classical setting. It lets me hold on to the bow more securely.

[Les Fret]

Yes, I know the difference between the jazz and classical pizzicato.
In jazz you play the pizz as a rest stroke. So pulling your finger against the next string and resting it there. As opposed to the classical pizz where you don't rest on the next string and play more upward with your fingers. Resulting in a different sound.

I was wandering if you also play fast alternating two finger pizz in classical. Or is it mostly with one finger?

[Fletcher Lanning]

I only use both fingers when it's to fast for one, and at that point I'd be weighing my options on whether or not I should just quiver the bow (some don't like it but I still use a quiver on classical gigs). I'm still not great at the quick switch but it's just a matter of being forced to do it a lot. I get better at it every time. For me, the best practice was to find something relatively easy and play it all pizz, while holding the bow. It made me much more comfortable with the grip.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Do you play the classical pizzicato only with your index finger or do you also play with two fingers?

And how far up do you point the bow when changing from arco to pizz?

I noticed that I don't point up the bow so much so I can go back faster to arco. I use a french bow.
I also saw someone who didn't change his bow grip. He just turned the hairs more inwards and without pointing the bow up at all. Therefore he was very quick at changing from arco to pizz. In this way it is only possible to play pizz with one finger.

I took the quiver off of my bass and always play with the bow in my hand except for an instance where I was playing a piece with a very fast i.e. 300 bpm swing portion.

When I switch to pizz, I use the middle finger to pluck, thumb on the bottom of the frog and index finger hooked in the area between the stick and the frog or sometimes thumb and index finger touching wrapped around stick and frog like give the okay sign. the bow is usually pointing straight up for the most part.

To me dropping the bow in the quiver and pulling it out takes away from time you can use for preparing for that tricky part that's coming up.

[JoeyNaeger]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Yes, I know the difference between the jazz and classical pizzicato.
In jazz you play the pizz as a rest stroke. So pulling your finger against the next string and resting it there. As opposed to the classical pizz where you don't rest on the next string and play more upward with your fingers. Resulting in a different sound.

I was wandering if you also play fast alternating two finger pizz in classical. Or is it mostly with one finger?

Not to derail the thread...but this isn't always true. There are many times in classical music where the basses will be pizzing on half or whole notes. At times like that, pulling through the string like a jazz player is highly appropriate. The music dictates the technique, not the genre.

[Square Bear]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Yes, I know the difference between the jazz and classical pizzicato.
In jazz you play the pizz as a rest stroke. So pulling your finger against the next string and resting it there. As opposed to the classical pizz where you don't rest on the next string and play more upward with your fingers. Resulting in a different sound.

I was wandering if you also play fast alternating two finger pizz in classical. Or is it mostly with one finger?

yes, you play all of these ways, depending on what you are doing. for example, i often use a rest stroke for forte passages or to crescendo in classical pieces. placement (closer or further from the bridge) is important as well, just the same as with arco. for fast changes, sometimes i will try to bow the part to end on an up-bow before a fast pizz change. for french grip, if you grip your bow like normal and just extend your middle finger a little past the hair, you can go very quickly between pizz and arco, but it takes a while to get used to and is not ideal for most situations. fast passages can require the use of alternating fingers. vibrato is another consideration, as it can help sustain the note, and is ideal for a warm orchestral pizz sound. basically, you should be able to make any of 10,000 sounds you could imagine for any given situation... and be able to execute any passages you encounter.