thumb position question

aks_29 · #1 11-26-2008, 12:47 PM

I've already used the search engine and haven't found an answer to my question.

I've never had very specific instruction when it comes to thumb position and I realized that I've developed a habit that I scared could be bad in the long run. In thumb position, when I put down my index finger, the joint locks and after playing for awhile last night it started to hurt. I tried keeping my finger bent but I didn't have enough strength to hold the string down.

What should I do?

TomGale · #2 11-26-2008, 01:34 PM

First, check to see if the action or string is too high. You might have to check with a repair man or very experienced player. That could be the cause of your problem.
Tom Gale

gennaevelyn · #3 11-26-2008, 01:55 PM

I have the exact same problem! And I can attest that if you don't get it figured out it will result in long-term pain. I played with it locked for a matter of weeks and then couldn't play in thumb position for the next two months while the joint recovered (that's what I get for trying to explore thumb position before my teacher was willing to take me there...)

Take my advice and stop now and seek professional direction from your teacher before you end up in the same position I was/am in.

damonsmith · #4 11-26-2008, 02:33 PM

Funny, this is one situation where practicing pizz can help:
work on triads 1st finger on the root on the D string (I start on D like the Bradetich video that is around somewhere), thumb on the third (F#) and 3rd finger on the fifth (A).
Do that chromatically up the fingerboard both pizz and arco and it does wonders.
Pizz for strength, arco for intonation.
I like to play the triad as an arpeggio then play the fifth as a double stop. Practice slowly and keep your fingers arched.

David Potts · #5 11-26-2008, 05:15 PM

Before worrying about strength of fingers check out your hand proportions.

Everyones' hands are different in squareness of palm, lengths of fingers and shape of finger tips. The amount of flesh on your fingertip and the length of your nails will affect the shapes of the three fingers used in Thumb Position and the ease of playing thumb position

In the "ideal hand" (which incidentally suits every instrument except French Horn?) the palm is broad and square, the pinkie extends past the last joint of the 3rd finger and the index finger is shorter than the 3rd finger.

Even so the finger tips need to be fleshy enough that you are not pressing the strings down with your fingernails in Thumb Position. The above hand shape enables you to align your fingers nicely when they turn and point diagonally towards the bridge as you go into Thumb Position and higher. The fingers are arched but the index finger is more bent and the 3rd finger is straighter. The end of your index finger comes down vertically and the string groove is diagonally across the top flesh. This is where the shape of the end of your finger and the length of (even cut very short) fingernail are important.

Have you ever played snooker/pool/billiards? Your left hand forms a bridge with curved fingers, and fingertips rest on the table in order to support the cue. The weight of your arm rests on your fingertips. The same principle can be used for Thumb Position. The three fingertips and the thumb form a line that is dictated by the string. If the fingers are arched they can "hook" the strings down, back towards your body, not "press" them down.

The only reason your fingers might have to collapse their last joint is if your nails project too close to the end of your fingers. Yes, this does put you at risk of injury. Can that last joint then be strengthened sufficiently by exercise so that you can play with flatter but not collapsing fingers to stay on the flesh?

To generally strengthen your hand and fingers I suggest finding a soft foam "stress ball", that you can close your hand entirely around with your pinkie closing towards the thumb. I have found balls that have a range of softness. Don't start too hard! Another thing I do is exercise each finger by curling it against pressure from my other thumb. Maintaining good finger shapes as you play will gradually strengthen them naturally as you play anyway.

DP

kpo · #6 11-26-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aks_29

... I've developed a habit that I scared could be bad in the long run. In thumb position, when I put down my index finger, the joint locks and ...?

Get thee to a teacher you trust.

and check out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHLXekzF74

Yeah, it's a cellist, but it's pretty well presented. Really! He goes through a lot of material quickly, but the main focus here is putting weight straight through into the thumb so the fingers don't collapse trying to do all the work themselves.

this guy has a good way of starting the hand in a concentrated "ball" that is the right shape, and avoids starting with "flailing" or "collapsing" fingers.

David Potts · #7 11-27-2008, 06:56 PM

I agree with KPO's "Get thee to a teacher". Five minutes of explanation and demonstration is worth a thousand words with no pictures.

DP

aks_29 · #8 11-27-2008, 10:36 PM

Just to clarify, I have 2 teachers who I trust very much, just neither of them could answer my question so I decided to come to talkbass. I've been playing in thumb position for awhile now and have never had any pain except for the other night when I posted this.

kpo · #9 11-28-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aks_29

Just to clarify, I have 2 teachers who I trust very much, just neither of them could answer my question so I decided to come to talkbass. I've been playing in thumb position for awhile now and have never had any pain except for the other night when I posted this.

I think that cellist's approach can help curve and strengthen your finger.

FWIW, my first finger tends to be more straight than bent outwards, and I still spend time making "curved-finger-strength" a priority.

In 2006 I was in the final round of an audition and I let my 1st finger joint "lock" during the Koussevitzky cto... the joint "stuck" and was strained and numb, so I played the final half hour of the audition using only 2 and 4! Don't let this happen to you - It's hard to break a habit like that, but you should commit to finding a way to curve outward, perhaps even as much as that cellist video suggests, so that the 1st finger plays on the side of the string!

COOL AND DEADLY · #10 11-28-2008, 10:36 AM

I had a fine instructor help me with this one! He said to put my thumb directly behind the two finger. He also said to fret using only my finger tips and not to barre the string with the side of my finger. He told me to keep my thumb low on the back of the neck and position my fingers like I was holding a tennis ball. When you move up the fretboard into the higher register you may want to place the thumb behind the one finger, out of practicality because you change the angle of your hand when you move up that far.

Treyzer · #11 11-28-2008, 12:22 PM

Uhmmm.... Paging Mr. Cool & Steady.....

I'm gonna hip you to something before Mr. PW has your hide... We are talking about Double Bass! There is no fretboard on a DB and when you get above what you guys tend to call the 12th fret, Double Bass players employ their thumbs as part of a fingering system. Nice of you to jump in but now your in the deep part of the pool!

FWIW: I play up in these positions often and for some reason have never experienced pain or finger locking. That could be due to lots of tension maybe.

For jazz players Michael Moore's Book on thumb position is very good!

Big_Fat_Dynamo · #12 11-28-2008, 01:04 PM

The pain in your finger may be because you are putting pressure on the finger board from the wrong areas of your body, do not try and push down on the string with your finger or hand, this will cause burning muscles quick. Use the weight of your left shoulder to press down on the string, and do not let your arm touch the bass make sure you keep it above. Francois Rabbath talks about this somewhere in this series of videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy-03jH_mrE . (You should probably watch those anyways).

COOL AND DEADLY · #13 11-30-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treyzer

Uhmmm.... Paging Mr. Cool & Steady.....

I'm gonna hip you to something before Mr. PW has your hide... We are talking about Double Bass! There is no fretboard on a DB and when you get above what you guys tend to call the 12th fret, Double Bass players employ their thumbs as part of a fingering system. Nice of you to jump in but now your in the deep part of the pool!

FWIW: I play up in these positions often and for some reason have never experienced pain or finger locking. That could be due to lots of tension maybe.

For jazz players Michael Moore's Book on thumb position is very good!

Sorry, I'll just shut up now!