Is it unheard of to play classical on a plywood bass?

Vacume · #1 11-11-2008, 10:43 PM

I read plywoon basses are mostly for jazz but is it really uncommon for classical DP players to play plywood?

Bass Barrister · #2 11-11-2008, 11:06 PM

Not unheard of, but very rare, especially in a professional setting.

Plys are commonly used in middle/high school groups.

In a community orchestra, I don't think that a good bassist with a well set-up ply bass will be turned away unless the group is very picky about the sound. It is difficult for a plywood instrument to match the tone quality of a good hybrid or carved bass.

thedbassist · #3 11-11-2008, 11:07 PM

If you're a beginner, it's fine to play on a plywood bass for classical music, but professionally it's not acceptable to play on a plywood bass.

EggyToast · #4 11-12-2008, 12:37 PM

Of course, if you have to ask, you shouldn't worry about your bass. If you're looking to buy a bass and have dreams of playing in a professional orchestra, but can only afford that old Kay, buy the Kay and practice, practice, practice. The practice you do on a cheap laminate will absolutely help you on any future bass.

Once you get to the point where you could conceivably audition, you'll be confident enough in your abilities where buying a more expensive bass is easier to swallow.

Local community orchestras, or small outfits that play music for local musicals, theatre, and so on, are usually more starved for someone who can play well, versus the sound being immaculate. Of course, that also depends on the local competition -- is there a professional music school in your area? If so, there's going to be more professional basses around. If not, you can probably get a gig with a $1500 plywood, if you're good.

And, of course, there's countless stories of professional players picking up a generic bass and making it sound awesome. In many ways, it comes down to technique and ability (practice!). When YOU get to a point where your own playing reveals to you differences between a cheapy bass and a more expensive bass, then you should consider moving up.

mjt0229 · #5 11-12-2008, 12:48 PM

I played classically on a plywood Kay throughout high school and into college, although I eventually switched to one of my school's carved instruments (and dropped my music major). I even played paying gigs with it, and had a knack for making it sound pretty decent.

Now, I play in a few quality community orchestras. Although I'm using a much nicer bass, my stand partner plays on a plywood King and makes it sound pretty good.

So, don't be ashamed of playing on a plywood instrument! Get it set up well and put good strings on it, take some lessons, work hard, and eventually you can move to something fancier.

dchan · #6 11-12-2008, 02:12 PM

The question isn't whether plywood is good enough for orchestral playing. It's really about whether you can and what you have to do to make your bass sound good. In other words, it's all about YOU.

My college bass teacher was a heck of a player, and he had several hundred-thousand or so Italian basses as well as a $8,000 Fetique bow. All I had was the college's plywood Christopher, which was actually not bad. I was able to make the Chrissy sound pretty good. My teacher made it sound almost as good as his Italian basses.

I'm not much of a pizzicato player. Under my fingers, the Chrissy sounds kind of weak. But when given to a jazz bassist, it sounded massive and powerful. Keep in mind that it was strung with aging orchestral strings.

So there you have it.

bassface747 · #7 11-12-2008, 10:22 PM

I won second place in the provincial music festival playing Dittersdorf and Eccles on a old plywood school bass... so it's certainly possible! Some plywood basses sing better that some carved basses. Instruments are too unique to make a blanket statement like that, as far as I'm concerned.

Trying to make it on the audition circuit with a plywood bass becomes an issue, because then that slight difference in sound quality will become the determiner in who wins the job and who doesn't.

Cory Palmer · #8 11-12-2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassface747

Trying to make it on the audition circuit with a plywood bass becomes an issue, because then that slight difference in sound quality will become the determiner in who wins the job and who doesn't.

When you get to the point where you are on the audition circuit a plywood bass will not cut. There are things that are physically not possible with any plywood bass. With a well made carved bass you can get a very wide range of sounds that simply aren't available with a plywood bass.

Simandl Fan · #9 12-25-2008, 10:18 PM

Don't be ashamed of having a plywood bass. Just get it set up correctly (good strings, good bridge and soundpost position), get your Simandl 30 Etudes down cold, and you will be fine.

JazzyLambert · #10 12-26-2008, 04:00 AM

I play a plywood bass in orchestras, and smaller ensembles. I do o.k. with it. Everyone else has carved basses, but there is only one guy who gets markedly better tone than me when playing arco..... but all the carved basses have more warmth than mine when played pizzicato.

When I play jazz, blues or latin, I use the ply bass amplified with a Schaller magnetic pup, and it kicks but doesn't sound very 'woody'.

drurb · #11 12-26-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassface747

Some plywood basses sing better that some carved basses. Instruments are too unique to make a blanket statement like that, as far as I'm concerned.

You can't make such a blanket statement because there are some plys that, as far as plywoods go, are particularly good and there are some carved basses, as carved basses go, that are particularly bad. As I've repeated here before:

Do not, however, be fooled. There are entry level carved basses that, from many standpoints, are far less desirable than a quality ply! Think of ply, hybrid, and carved as three overlapping distributions (bell-curves, if you will), with the mean value of "quality" being lowest for the plys, intermediate for the hybrids, and highest for the carved ones.

Still, a decent to good carved bass will be far more desirable for classical than any ply. The only way a ply would "sing better" than a carved bass is if that carved bass were a particularly poor example. I agree with the majority of the advice given so far. Still, let's not kid ourselves, one can, indeed, make a general statement that carved basses are the ones that are desirable for orchestra work. I say that having, as a student, played a Kay in a professional orchestra!

damonsmith · #12 12-26-2008, 12:57 PM

I have never heard one of the mythical plys that "sound better than a carved bass". I have heard some that were not so bad, even some I wouldn't mind playing, but even cheap hybrids with a good set up sound better, and sing far better arco.
If you are serious about classical you need to find a way to get a really good carved bass.
That is all there is to it. Practice on what you have, but you will need to get a good bass sooner or later.

drurb · #13 12-26-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I have never heard one of the mythical plys that "sound better than a carved bass". I have heard some that were not so bad, even some I wouldn't mind playing, but even cheap hybrids with a good set up sound better, and sing far better arco.
If you are serious about classical you need to find a way to get a really good carved bass.
That is all there is to it. Practice on what you have, but you will need to get a good bass sooner or later.

Agreed. I'd like to clarify a bit. Especially given some of the posts here lately referencing ridiculously cheap imported "carved" instruments, I was include those in the category of carved basses. They're the ones in lower tails of the "carved" distribution. Some of those can certainly sound worse and be less desirable than some high-quality plys. Thus, my statement that any decent carved bass would be superior to a ply.

bassface747 · #14 12-26-2008, 01:59 PM

The second bass that I used in my life was a mid-60s German plywood school bass. I was already at an intermediate level when I started with that instrument. When I got my carved bass (which was only 2 years old), I had a lot of trouble getting the sound to open up and be as nuanced as the sound I could get from my old bass. BUT since then, my carved bass has improved quite a bit in sound and feel, and is sounds better than the old ply bass.

My point is that it can also be a matter of how much potential there is in an instrument for improvement, which in my case had to do with how well broken in the 2 instruments were. It makes sense that a well set-up plywood instrument played for 40 or 50 years might sound better than a new, stiff instrument that has not yet had an appropriate set-up. Now that my carved bass is set-up well and has been played a bit more, I certainly agree that it sounds better than my old bass.

BMason · #15 12-26-2008, 04:00 PM

I like to play classical on any bass that sounds good.

drurb · #16 12-26-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassface747

The second bass that I used in my life was a mid-60s German plywood school bass. I was already at an intermediate level when I started with that instrument. When I got my carved bass (which was only 2 years old), I had a lot of trouble getting the sound to open up and be as nuanced as the sound I could get from my old bass. BUT since then, my carved bass has improved quite a bit in sound and feel, and is sounds better than the old ply bass.

My point is that it can also be a matter of how much potential there is in an instrument for improvement, which in my case had to do with how well broken in the 2 instruments were. It makes sense that a well set-up plywood instrument played for 40 or 50 years might sound better than a new, stiff instrument that has not yet had an appropriate set-up. Now that my carved bass is set-up well and has been played a bit more, I certainly agree that it sounds better than my old bass.

Hmm. I've yet to hear a quality new carved bass set up properly that didn't beat a ply (regardless of age) in terms of complexity of tone especially for arco. From your description, it sounds like it took a while for you to get a superior sound on the carved bass. Was/is this a "nice" carved instrument? Could the difference you perceived have been the result of becoming accustomed to a new instrument?

bassface747 · #17 12-26-2008, 08:50 PM

Yes, my carved bass is a high quality instrument, but I think the ply I was using was also a particularly good one. I've played plenty of others that weren't nearly as good. And I agree, I think a lot of it was just being used to the feel and sound of the old bass.

Eli_Upright12 · #18 12-27-2008, 08:46 AM

I think what is being said is pretty accurate, that a ply can get you to a certain point, but to make the next step you probably want a good hybrid or fully carved bass. The reason I think this is true is because when you start getting good bow technique and doing things like fast spiccato in the string or ricochet bowing they will sound the same as doing it in a way such as just playing fast staccato, and they will be much more difficult. Plywood basses speak in a way that is ok, until you get to more advanced strokes and wanting to vary the attack, clarity, volume, precision and tone of your playing. I'm even seeing this on a good hybrid, where even with belcantos sometimes I will hit notes and notice that there is a lack of evenness in the registers and that its not as easy to get the real short strokes to pop. That being said my two stand partners last year played a 40s Kay and a 5 year old plywood bass and they both kicked my butt in the section. They both had nice bows and were monster orchestral players, but one who is now a bass major has upgraded to an old german carved bass and the other, if she pursues music, will surely do the same. I plan on upgrading after auditions this year too.

drurb · #19 12-27-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

...The reason I think this is true is because when you start getting good bow technique and doing things like fast spiccato in the string or ricochet bowing they will sound the same as doing it in a way such as just playing fast staccato, and they will be much more difficult. Plywood basses speak in a way that is ok, until you get to more advanced strokes and wanting to vary the attack, clarity, volume, precision and tone of your playing...

Interesting insight. I'd like to add that I think it doesn't take these bowing styles to hear the difference in complexity of tone between a ply and a carved top. I didn't want less-experienced players to think that your post meant that a ply is fine until you get to "fancy" arco. I suspect you'd agree.

Eli_Upright12 · #20 12-27-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

Interesting insight. I'd like to add that I think it doesn't take these bowing styles to hear the difference in complexity of tone between a ply and a carved top. I didn't want less-experienced players to think that your post meant that a ply is fine until you get to "fancy" arco. I suspect you'd agree.

Yes, I agree completely, Plys are generally quite a journey to play, especially poorly set up ones like most high schools have. I only mentioned those bowings, because on the really advanced techniques that's where it becomes glaringly clear that even with the best of technique a bad bass will hold you back. You just can't force those kind of sounds out of a bass it has to be a combination of player and bass.