Yeah, I Know This is Blasphemy

[Mugre]

Originally Posted by eerbrev

This is why I have issues about playing the Bach suites. It feels wrong, sounds wrong, even though they're quickly becoming part of "standard' bass repertoire.

I played cello for 5 years so I have some affection for the suites and have heard them performed live many times. I actually rather like the suites, when done well, on electric bass guitar. the ability to let the roots sustain and actually create the harmonies that the viol can only imply can be quite sublime.

In general, all this teeth gnashing over who plays what on what instrument is puerile. It's a shame that the classical world has such a hard time embracing the notion of recreational music making. The rock and blues world gets it that it's fun to drink a few bears and blow through a few verses of a Muddy Waters vamp. Of course the fiddle music world gets it. The Bluegrass world gets it. It's only in classical I find this notion that if you're not sublime you must be profane and should just not bother everyone else with your amateur scrapings. Youths you see, have every opportunity in the world to be formed into ensembles and sound like crap on some extract of Mozart or Beethoven. For adults there are almost none. What are called community orchestras are filled with degreed ringers. One of the reasons I like recorders these days is that I like early music and the relative ease of finding ensemble playing opportunities without having been to conservatory.

[Steve Dallman]

I started college in 1971 as a fine art major. When asked "What is the definition of art?" the head of the department, Arthur Kruk responded, "Art is what artists do."

[stefaniw80401]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

I can't believe I just read this entire thread.

OMG! LOL! Same thing just happened to me! Doncha just love TB?

[what the pluck]

Sometimes it's like a soap opera, sucks ya in then a commercial break.

[eerbrev]

Originally Posted by Mugre

I played cello for 5 years so I have some affection for the suites and have heard them performed live many times. I actually rather like the suites, when done well, on electric bass guitar. the ability to let the roots sustain and actually create the harmonies that the viol can only imply can be quite sublime.

In general, all this teeth gnashing over who plays what on what instrument is puerile. It's a shame that the classical world has such a hard time embracing the notion of recreational music making. The rock and blues world gets it that it's fun to drink a few bears and blow through a few verses of a Muddy Waters vamp. Of course the fiddle music world gets it. The Bluegrass world gets it. It's only in classical I find this notion that if you're not sublime you must be profane and should just not bother everyone else with your amateur scrapings. Youths you see, have every opportunity in the world to be formed into ensembles and sound like crap on some extract of Mozart or Beethoven. For adults there are almost none. What are called community orchestras are filled with degreed ringers. One of the reasons I like recorders these days is that I like early music and the relative ease of finding ensemble playing opportunities without having been to conservatory.

In many cases, I agree with you. The notion of musicmaking as not only being fun, but being recreation for music makers and listeners alike, no matter what level is incredibly important. The only composer for whom I have this odd relationship of what i suppose you could call sanctity is J.S. Bach, and even then only really in his solo works (for violin, cello, keyboard, etc).

Maybe it's just the way that Bach was introduced to me, as something inherently special to be treasured, but transcribed solo Bach always gives my stomach the rumblies (even when done well, such as many viola transcriptions of the suites, or DaXun Xiang and Edgar Meyer's previously mentioned transcriptions). I find the quality of performance to be lacking somehow, even at high performance levels. If you take the best transcriptions of a cello suite and compare it to the best version performed on a cello (whomever you choose, that's an argument for outside this theoretical situation), it is my opinion and experience that the cello version will be preferable. Of course, others have other opinions that are as valid or moreso than mine, but that's mine.

That does not mean that I don't think we should study them for their intrinsic musical and technical values, but it does mean that I dislike performing them and have a problem with their growing popularity on Masters and Orchestra audition lists. There is the Weinberg solo sonata, the Fryba Suite in the Olden Style, the Telemann solo Gamba Sonata (which i feel we have more right to than cellists) and many other solo bass pieces small and large to choose from when it comes to virtuosic repertoire (much of it is actually good, too. See the Weingberg and the Telemann in particular) for auditions.

but that's all my opinion, and I'm allowed to be wrong if i feel like it.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by eerbrev

In many cases, I agree with you. The notion of musicmaking as not only being fun, but being recreation for music makers and listeners alike, no matter what level is incredibly important. The only composer for whom I have this odd relationship of what i suppose you could call sanctity is J.S. Bach, and even then only really in his solo works (for violin, cello, keyboard, etc).

Maybe it's just the way that Bach was introduced to me, as something inherently special to be treasured, but transcribed solo Bach always gives my stomach the rumblies (even when done well, such as many viola transcriptions of the suites, or DaXun Xiang and Edgar Meyer's previously mentioned transcriptions). I find the quality of performance to be lacking somehow, even at high performance levels. If you take the best transcriptions of a cello suite and compare it to the best version performed on a cello (whomever you choose, that's an argument for outside this theoretical situation), it is my opinion and experience that the cello version will be preferable. Of course, others have other opinions that are as valid or moreso than mine, but that's mine.

That does not mean that I don't think we should study them for their intrinsic musical and technical values, but it does mean that I dislike performing them and have a problem with their growing popularity on Masters and Orchestra audition lists. There is the Weinberg solo sonata, the Fryba Suite in the Olden Style, the Telemann solo Gamba Sonata (which i feel we have more right to than cellists) and many other solo bass pieces small and large to choose from when it comes to virtuosic repertoire (much of it is actually good, too. See the Weingberg and the Telemann in particular) for auditions.

but that's all my opinion, and I'm allowed to be wrong if i feel like it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard that the cello suites weren't even written for cello.

Even so, I don't think it's an issue of playing music on another instrument, it's the idea of playing it on another instrument and destroying it. I would love to hear Victor Wooten play a Vanhal Concerto or something, because I know Victor Wooten probably would put a whole lot of musicianship into making it sound great.

I've listened to the Suites played on a marimba, and I thoroughly enjoyed that too.

I actually prefer Daxun's version of the Fifth Suite Prelude and Fugue more than a number of different cellists I've heard--I think the range of the bass makes some of the leaps and double stops sound eerie, ghost-like, and dramatic. I think by playing it in its intended range and with the technical mastery he has of the instrument, he makes it much more powerful than some other cello recordings of it I've heard.

You could play Bach on a banjo and I don't think anyone would have much of a problem with it if you put thought, care and effort into it.

I have to disagree with you about them being added to audition repertoire--my teacher's teacher won his spot in the New York Phil using the Dragonetti Concerto way back when. To come from Dragonetti to Bottesini and Bach is a great step forward and I think it improves the technical proficiency of all bassists if these are made the standard. Two years ago I had to play a Scarlatti Sonata for Districts--my teacher had been working on that same piece his first year of college. That's been many moons ago, but to think of what a student of mine would play twenty or thirty years from now with the technical demands as high as they are, it makes me excited about the future of bass-playing. With a better ability to master all areas of bass playing, I think the idea of playing with even more musicality, precision and technical perfection is more attainable, and allows double-bass recordings and pieces to be taken more seriously by the rest of the music world.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by Meremortal

I think Herbie Hancock completely missed the mark covering a Nirvana song, but I wouldn't say doing so was disrespectful.

Jazz and classical were meant to be music of the masses and have become this esoteric personal territory of an elite few. Maybe that's why so people listen anymore.

Jazz maybe, but classical music has historically only been listened to by the aristocratic elite of society. It's only our modern idea of democraticizing it that makes us think it's always been meant for everyone. Most composers come from rich backgrounds, most musicians come from musician backgrounds, a lot of the music is written for places where rich people congregate...You get the idea.

There is sort of a curve: of listeners to artistic complexity. I think that's why people get the idea that it's high-browed. Classical music isn't innately high-browed music--it exists just as it is. The more complex and more art-focused your music tends to be, fewer and fewer listeners will care enough about the artistic aspect of it to listen to it.

[Adam Attard]

Originally Posted by Mugre

I played cello for 5 years so I have some affection for the suites and have heard them performed live many times. I actually rather like the suites, when done well, on electric bass guitar. the ability to let the roots sustain and actually create the harmonies that the viol can only imply can be quite sublime.

In general, all this teeth gnashing over who plays what on what instrument is puerile. It's a shame that the classical world has such a hard time embracing the notion of recreational music making. The rock and blues world gets it that it's fun to drink a few bears and blow through a few verses of a Muddy Waters vamp. Of course the fiddle music world gets it. The Bluegrass world gets it. It's only in classical I find this notion that if you're not sublime you must be profane and should just not bother everyone else with your amateur scrapings. Youths you see, have every opportunity in the world to be formed into ensembles and sound like crap on some extract of Mozart or Beethoven. For adults there are almost none. What are called community orchestras are filled with degreed ringers. One of the reasons I like recorders these days is that I like early music and the relative ease of finding ensemble playing opportunities without having been to conservatory.

I for one enjoy playing the cello suites on bass, even if I'm not exactly a master at performing them.

I have no problem with people doing things on other instruments or arranging things, or even playing things badly for fun- i've done a few gigs with pretty terrible groups in high school, played with this one community band that kind of butchered Pictures at an Exhibition... and I think that has it's place too- the only way classical musicians encourage the love of classical music is by encouraging others to try it, not just sit in halls wearing stuffy clothing and being yelled at for making a sound.

Hell, if you look at the history of most classical music, it hasn't been the stuffy elitist stuff it is now.. For instance, there never used to be the unspoken rule of not clapping in between movements of symphonies or concerti- it still isn't that way after a particularly dramatic or well performed aria in an opera. And even further, from my understanding, a lot of the chamber music we have now was played by, in essence, "pick up bands" of musicians who got together and played together (even doing improvising a lot more than now). We've gotten away from that and made it this sanctified thing somehow, and I feel like it's a little overzealous. I think orchestras these days are somewhat getting the message of spreading it to the masses (a few orchestras I've been to offer incredibly inexpensive tickets nowadays), but it's still viewed as this thing for the elite, which is completely the wrong message.

Amateur musicianship has it's place, for sure, but when you take one of the more established pieces of double bass repertoire, record a sloppy arrangement of it, then post it in various places on the internet with a lot of people who have spent a lot of time perfecting said concerto, you're just seeking to, if not offend, at least annoy people. That was my issue with the OP, not the fact that he "violated the sanctity of Vanhal".

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The thread is in a major derail mode because of the departure of the OP, but...

Music is music. Complex music is complex, and it takes a really technically accomplished musician to make it transcend the complexity and let it speak clearly enough to bring out the simplicity in it. Simple music is simple, and it takes an accomplished musician to infuse it with enough intent and clarity to let the meaning come through as somehow more complex than the structure of the notes and rhythms would suggest. For the former, I think of someone like Yo Yo Ma, and for the latter, someone like Bonnie Raitt. Insert your own musical icons and season to taste, of course.

Personally, I don't care about transcriptions or what instrument is playing what music as long as the music speaks.

[esa372]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io3xwHq1fLE

[Adam Attard]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

The thread is in a major derail mode because of the departure of the OP, but...

Music is music. Complex music is complex, and it takes a really technically accomplished musician to make it transcend the complexity and let it speak clearly enough to bring out the simplicity in it. Simple music is simple, and it takes an accomplished musician to infuse it with enough intent and clarity to let the meaning come through as somehow more complex than the structure of the notes and rhythms would suggest. For the former, I think of someone like Yo Yo Ma, and for the latter, someone like Bonnie Raitt. Insert your own musical icons and season to taste, of course.

Personally, I don't care about transcriptions or what instrument is playing what music as long as the music speaks.

+10000

[Adam Attard]

Originally Posted by esa372

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io3xwHq1fLE

Nice.

[esa372]

Originally Posted by skyre12

Nice.

Thanks!

It was a very challenging project for me (and blasphemy to some), but I'm sure glad I did it.

[chicagodoubler]

[quote=ThumpPlunkJunk;13655530]Jazz maybe, but classical music has historically only been listened to by the aristocratic elite of society.

/\ This is not remotely true. In Beethoven's age the concert halls served beer, the crowd came and went as the pleased, and the masses would demand that certain movements be repeated if the people enjoyed them. At the premier of Shostakovich 5, the people (largely the proletariat) stormed into the streets and threw a joyous riot to celebrate the piece. I could go on and on. Many of us know essential classical music such as William Tell and Die Walküre from Bugs Bunny and Apocalypse Now. Also, your statement regarding aristocracy and composers is equally ill-founded. Philip Glass drove a cab and worked as a plumber to pay his ensemble. Many of our most revered composers were the children of blue collar, working musicians.

Also, the suites most definitely were written for cello, albeit a Baroque instrument.

Let's all please be careful using sweeping generalizations and assumptions.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

/\ This is not remotely true. In Beethoven's age the concert halls served beer, the crowd came and went as the pleased, and the masses would demand that certain movements be repeated if the people enjoyed them. At the premier of Shostakovich 5, the people (largely the proletariat) stormed into the streets and threw a joyous riot to celebrate the piece. I could go on and on. Many of us know essential classical music such as William Tell and Die Walküre from Bugs Bunny and Apocalypse Now. Also, your statement regarding aristocracy and composers is equally ill-founded. Philip Glass drove a cab and worked as a plumber to pay his ensemble. Many of our most revered composers were the children of blue collar, working musicians.

Also, the suites most definitely were written for cello, albeit a Baroque instrument.

Let's all please be careful using sweeping generalizations and assumptions.

+1
But, in the name of accuracy, I must say that William Tell Overture was the theme of the Lone Ranger radio serial.

[eerbrev]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard that the cello suites weren't even written for cello.

Even so, I don't think it's an issue of playing music on another instrument, it's the idea of playing it on another instrument and destroying it. I would love to hear Victor Wooten play a Vanhal Concerto or something, because I know Victor Wooten probably would put a whole lot of musicianship into making it sound great.

I've listened to the Suites played on a marimba, and I thoroughly enjoyed that too.

I actually prefer Daxun's version of the Fifth Suite Prelude and Fugue more than a number of different cellists I've heard--I think the range of the bass makes some of the leaps and double stops sound eerie, ghost-like, and dramatic. I think by playing it in its intended range and with the technical mastery he has of the instrument, he makes it much more powerful than some other cello recordings of it I've heard.

You could play Bach on a banjo and I don't think anyone would have much of a problem with it if you put thought, care and effort into it.

I have to disagree with you about them being added to audition repertoire--my teacher's teacher won his spot in the New York Phil using the Dragonetti Concerto way back when. To come from Dragonetti to Bottesini and Bach is a great step forward and I think it improves the technical proficiency of all bassists if these are made the standard. Two years ago I had to play a Scarlatti Sonata for Districts--my teacher had been working on that same piece his first year of college. That's been many moons ago, but to think of what a student of mine would play twenty or thirty years from now with the technical demands as high as they are, it makes me excited about the future of bass-playing. With a better ability to master all areas of bass playing, I think the idea of playing with even more musicality, precision and technical perfection is more attainable, and allows double-bass recordings and pieces to be taken more seriously by the rest of the music world.

I feel like you may have misunderstood my intentions. I agree that any music played with thought, care and effort can be beautiful. I just feel that 1.) bassists have a lot of great unaccompanied repertoire that no one plays because at the time it was written some of it was deemed "impossible", and 2.) the unaccompanied works by Bach are special to me in the form the were created, and arrangements just don't come up to the same level for me. The defining words in that sentence are "for me", meaning it's my opinion, not a fact or anyone else's opinion.

are there fantastic transcriptions? of course. Chris Thile's transcriptions of the violin partitas and sonatas on mandolin bring a whole different texture and set of ideas, Daxun's performance of the 5th suite and Edgar Meyer's performance of the 2nd suite are at a level of artistry few can achieve. This recording of the Mozart e minor sonata is quite nice as well (5ths bass warning). My reticence is difficult to explain, I just have a soft spot in my heart for these unaccompanied works and when they're not up to a certain standard i find it hard to be in the same room.

I too am tremendously excited about the level of bass playing now and in the future. even in the past ten years the level of playing has increased exponentially.

cheers,

eerbrev

p.s. as for the cello suites not being written for cello, there was some hubub a while ago where people now think it could have been a violoncello da spalla (arm cello, played like a giant viola) but it's a bit of a moot point, as it's tuned to the same pitch as the cello we know and love, but with an extra 5th e string on top. There was some talk they had been written for gamba, but that, as far as I know, has been discounted. Gamba was on the way out at the time, and the gambist in the court Bach was working in was also a talented cellist. Who knows? we have no original manuscripts.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

I am wrong about everything.

It's time to go burn some books.

[Adam Attard]

[quote=chicagodoubler;13658546]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

Jazz maybe, but classical music has historically only been listened to by the aristocratic elite of society.

/\ This is not remotely true. In Beethoven's age the concert halls served beer, the crowd came and went as the pleased, and the masses would demand that certain movements be repeated if the people enjoyed them. At the premier of Shostakovich 5, the people (largely the proletariat) stormed into the streets and threw a joyous riot to celebrate the piece. I could go on and on. Many of us know essential classical music such as William Tell and Die Walküre from Bugs Bunny and Apocalypse Now. Also, your statement regarding aristocracy and composers is equally ill-founded. Philip Glass drove a cab and worked as a plumber to pay his ensemble. Many of our most revered composers were the children of blue collar, working musicians.

Don't forget the riot at the premiere of the Rite.

[Bald Steve]

Amazing. I just read this entire thread and the ride it takes you on is just epic. Highly recommended.

Just to throw in my two cents - I see this mentality out there more and more these days. No one wants honest feedback. Everyone just wants to be told how great they are. You won't get better unless you are told where you need to improve, and attack those areas. I remember a proficiency I did at Berklee, Performance Major level 6. I killed everything, but got my ass handed to me on the sight reading section (they put a cut up 16th note funk bassline in front of me...it was painful). Whit Brown (who as any Berklee alum will tell you does not mince words) happened to be sitting in for it. He just shook his head and said, "Yeah...terrible on the reading. I think you know what area to focus on". So I focused on reading. I didn't take it personally. The best thing you can do as an artist it let strangers (NOT your family) review your work. You'll get honesty, and that is hugely important for growth.

As someone else said - the OP turned in a mediocre performance, kicked back, and waited for the forum to bow down and kiss the rings. Instead, the forum did him a favor and provided some great, honest feedback. Now he knows to work on tone, articulation, and feel. Remember: There is no such thing as an artist that can't improve and evolve.

[chicagodoubler]

ThumpPlunkJunk,

If you have books that told you such things, then you should indeed burn them, then find the authors and slap them in the mouth.

Bald Steve,

RIGHT ON. This is an epidemic right now, and is seriously hurting our music. The first lesson I had with the great and ferocious Lawrence Hurst, the first thing out of his mouth was: "You don't hold the bass right, you don't hold the bow right, and you *sure* don't play in tune."

This hurt, but was the best thing that had happened for my future career up until that point. The porkchop world is all feel-good far too much of the time, as those who do not double tend to avoid the gauntlet of orchestral training, where things are either right or wrong, and there are no pats on the back for utter mediocrity.

The flip side- when a kid posts a clip of their playing and shows genuine hard work and accomplishment and humbly asks for feedback, we generally tell them they're doing a good job before offering constructive criticism. If the OP takes to heart what we have stated here it will be of great benefit to his playing and possible career.