Yeah, I Know This is Blasphemy

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Bald Steve

As someone else said - the OP turned in a mediocre performance, kicked back, and waited for the forum to bow down and kiss the rings. Instead, the forum did him a favor and provided some great, honest feedback. Now he knows to work on tone, articulation, and feel. Remember: There is no such thing as an artist that can't improve and evolve.

And tuning the bass to the "orchestra".

[Adam Attard]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

ThumpPlunkJunk,

RIGHT ON. This is an epidemic right now, and is seriously hurting our music. The first lesson I had with the great and ferocious Lawrence Hurst, the first thing out of his mouth was: "You don't hold the bass right, you don't hold the bow right, and you *sure* don't play in tune."

Larry Hurst has the unique ability to destroy any and all self confidence you have in playing the bass.

And of course, while doing so, making you a much better player.

That's also one reason I like my current teach- he's quick to tell you when you screw up and won't let you get away with anything wonky- just like Mr. Hurst did. That's the mark of a good teacher to me for sure.

[eerbrev]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

RIGHT ON. This is an epidemic right now, and is seriously hurting our music. The first lesson I had with the great and ferocious Lawrence Hurst, the first thing out of his mouth was: "You don't hold the bass right, you don't hold the bow right, and you *sure* don't play in tune."

I had a lesson with Rennie Regehr, a Violist who is a well known string pedagogue here in Canada and was the head of the Glenn Gould School (Royal Conservatory of Music in Canada) for a while, and a professional badass. After I played the Bottesini Elegy for him his first words were " I know you can do better than that." and the he proceeded to take apart everything I was doing musically, technically, the works. The piece I had performed earlier that week was in tatters and all of my ego was gone. It was the best lesson I had ever had from anyone.

I still highly recommend any of my friends who feel like they have reached a wall in their playing to have a lesson with a teacher who doesn't study their instrument (violinist, violist, cellist, vocalists in particular). The biggest thing that they will give you is not taking any of your ******** "Do this" "but that's hard on the bass" "that's too bad. Figure it out, because that's what you need to do there." Even a great bass teacher (Such as Lawrence Hurst as cited above) can do this, but often we can be soft on our own. we know when something's hard and baby our fellow bassists. It's hard when someone tears you down (especially when they're very blunt about it), but it's not going to do anything but make you a better player if you listen to their advice.

eerbrev

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

ThumpPlunkJunk,

If you have books that told you such things, then you should indeed burn them, then find the authors and slap them in the mouth.

Books, documentaries, magazines, directors of symphony orchestras...

All my life has been a lie...

[chicagodoubler]

Thump,

When you start working on a big, new piece, it's a good idea to sit down with the score and work out fingerings, do basic analysis, and feel it out before picking up the instrument. I was doing this with the Koussevitzky concerto at a coffee shop many years ago and this postman sat down next to me and started asking questions about it. I assumed he was just being polite and told him it was a piece by a Russian composer. He asks who. I tell him Koussy. He says "Oh, from the Boston Symphony?"



Also, please note that at least half of the classical music enthusiasts in America are very poor for a big chunk of their lives. They went to music school.

[Anonymatt]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

I can't believe I just read this entire thread.

Me too. This is one of the ones I read backwards. You know, you think you're gonna just catch up on a discussion about new methods on page six, but then you can't resist seeing how far the rabbit hole goes...

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

This is an epidemic right now, and is seriously hurting our music. The first lesson I had with the great and ferocious Lawrence Hurst, the first thing out of his mouth was: "You don't hold the bass right, you don't hold the bow right, and you *sure* don't play in tune."

If you walk into a room with an ego, by all means the teacher should step on it, because without that initial blow you won't be ready for the constructive criticism. But in my experience, good teachers come in many forms, and some of them happen to also be butt heads (not talking about Hurst here because I don't know the guy).

[jmclearnon]

I would definitely agree with the tearing down bit now, and i have benefited from it. However i would say before grade 8 being ripped down can be detrimental.

Its better when you can play all the notes, you then can get lazy and not use expression properly.... Then getting ripped out makes you rethink the way you are playing the piece, this is where i feel there are loads of peeps who are not great musicians they just learn the notes, to me that's just the first hurdle....

The best teacher i had was my last cello teacher, we spent the whole year talking about expression and unorthodox techniques that were not commonly used, we played the same pieces all year, but in all different contexts and styles and it was AWESOME!

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

Books, documentaries, magazines, directors of symphony orchestras...

All my life has been a lie...

It's not too late for you to present facts to support your claims. Either that or get over it.

[Don Higdon]

In my first lesson with Linda McKnight (MSM), she picked a simple exercise and said "Begin". I looked at the page and before I could do anything she said "STOP", and named 4 things I had already done wrong.

[chicagodoubler]

I've seen the breaking down process make some people more arrogant and seen it put other people in jobs in major symphony orchestras... often in the same studio(s).

Ideally we should balance this out with supportive, nurturing advice. It's like teaching a kid to ride a bike. Yeah, they fall down and skin their knee. You go and get the alcohol, clean the scrape, and put their butt right back in the seat and give them a good push.

BTW, Crows, sometimes it isn't an issue of a student's ego. If what they're doing is totally wrong, it needs to be broken regardless of their attitude.

[AClark]

I prefer the kind of teacher that'll tear you down when you need it. It doesn't feel good, but It helps to know the person who is tearing me down cares enough to do so. Being so harsh sometimes probably doesn't make the teacher feel so great in the short term either (I could be wrong, but if it were me I would have a hard time with that), but they're doing the right thing for them in the long term.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by AClark

I prefer the kind of teacher that'll tear you down when you need it. It doesn't feel good, but It helps to know the person who is tearing me down cares enough to do so. Being so harsh sometimes probably doesn't make the teacher feel so great in the short term either (I could be wrong, but if it were me I would have a hard time with that), but they're doing the right thing for them in the long term.

The least-productive lessons I've ever had is where the teacher points out glaring flaws without giving me the tools to fix them. I don't take anything that's said about my playing personally unless it's something that I'm completely at fault for like some lazy shifting or something.

I think as a student it's your job to *not* take things to heart and look at them from a playing standpoint. But I think it is the teacher's duty to show that student exactly how they can remedy whatever problem they're encountering. Some teachers are old-fashioned and it's okay for them to beat up on their pupils in their minds. Some teachers won't do that. But you won't learn anything from those great, old-fashioned minds if you're sitting around feeling sorry for yourself and taking what they say too personally.

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

It's not too late for you to present facts to support your claims. Either that or get over it.

Maybe I misspoke. I try not to beat dead horses or reply to things after I've already admitted a wrong on my part.

But perhaps I can clarify: I don't personally believe that classical music is the egalitarian, for-the-masses art form I would like it to be, but only because I think it's harder to understand and wrap your head around, and it takes a little bit of training and in-grained understanding of it to really appreciate it. An understanding I think is afforded especially to the rich in today's society, where classical music has fallen out of the popular realm of entertainment and especially in America we've lost our cultural connection to this form of art. I think the ability to go see concerts on a more regular basis, playing an instrument from an early age to learn a basic appreciation for the difficulties and subtleties in music, and the connotation we place between classical musical and high-society makes the genre especially vulnerable to this kind of exclusivity.

But I rescind my statement about it being solely for the rich and aristocratic of society--I think the patrons of the composers who wrote their music were from the aristocracy, I think a lot of music was written specifically for special occasions and courts funded by monarchs and aristocrats, but much more music has been indeed written for the masses to enjoy.

[JoeWPgh]

I skipped half the thread and I'm face palming myself for reading that much of it. We learn by doing, by experimenting. The accomplishment, if there, is in the gained knowlege aquired, more than the performance. Then again, I doubt if I could care less about any of it.

[davidsbass]

I think yall need to relax. I'm not particularly impressed by his playing Vanhal on electric, but jeez leave the guy alone. We don't have to adopt a "holier than thou" attitude about everyone who doesn't play things exactly to our taste. Let the guy explore whatever music he wants on his own. We don't have to publicize our judgments.

[chicagodoubler]

Davids,

This is a public forum. When you post on a public forum with "look what I can play" it ain't all puppy dogs and rainbows. The music world has gotten far too cut throat to give pats on the back for getting a D minus in performance. Personally, I feel doing so is a disservice to the community, and lowers the bar for everyone else. If anything, we should be calling for people to play better all the time. The music deserves excellence, regardless of what you're playing.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

If anyone is actually interested in contacting Nelson Montana, aka plangentmusic, feel free to through his YouTube account. This guy is desperately, desperately seeking attention from anyone who will look, and I've had to delete multiple accounts from this thread alone that he started to try to get more people to view his videos, promote himself, and defend against any detractors.

In over a decade at TalkBass I've never seen anyone so sadly desperate for attention, including all the lonely little teenage trolls we've gotten in Off-Topic. So if you see a user popping into this thread to defend or promote this guy, check the join date. It's probably plangentmusic trying to talk himself up again.

[Don Higdon]

Anyone who posts his performance at TB should be prepared to hear the truth. If he can't handle it, he can go to YouTube.
It's also worth noting that the OP has been banned from TB for troll activities, not once, but many times under different names.

[Adam Attard]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

If anyone is actually interested in contacting Nelson Montana, aka plangentmusic, feel free to through his YouTube account. This guy is desperately, desperately seeking attention from anyone who will look, and I've had to delete multiple accounts from this thread alone that he started to try to get more people to view his videos, promote himself, and defend against any detractors.

In over a decade at TalkBass I've never seen anyone so sadly desperate for attention, including all the lonely little teenage trolls we've gotten in Off-Topic. So if you see a user popping into this thread to defend or promote this guy, check the join date. It's probably plangentmusic trying to talk himself up again.

.....wow