32" scale with good tension - possible?

[shai-ga]

Ok, so I'm about to start a 5 string bass with
a 32" scale.
What should I do to get a nice string tension?

[Arx]

Depends how you define nice. Assuming you're out to get a fairly normal tension, similar to a 34"/35" in a shorter instrument, you need to increase the gauge of the strings (The increased weight is what makes the difference). That's really the only way to do it. If anyone suggests any headstock design changes, through the body stringing, special bridges, or a certain brand of strings, just ignore them. It's physics. Some of these things may have other effects that they misinterpret as an increase in tension, but they're not.

-Nick

[steve21]

Make a very stable, strong neck.

[Liten]

you get a artist 3200 from www.unicornbass.se

[Arx]

Originally Posted by steve21

Make a very stable, strong neck.

A good Idea, but I don't think it'll increase the tension.

Originally Posted by Liten

you get a artist 3200 from www.unicornbass.se

When you take your car to a mechanic and ask if there's a way to make it run better, does he tell you to go buy a new one?

I hope not.

Doesn't matter if they make good basses or not. He's asking in the luthier's corner how he'd make a bass with good string tension.

He's not in the Basses forum asking what he should buy.

-Nick

[shai-ga]

Arx,
I understand that the tension is affected only inside the scale length area,
but there are so many basses out there with medium to very short scales,
from Fodera Garrison 33" to some 28-30" basses, that must have some sort of improvement to insure a high tension strings, don't they?
Is it all up to strings weight?

[Nelson Guitars]

Think of it like trying to tune your bass to a standard tuning with a capo on the second fret. To get the note low enough you would have to slack down the tension significantly. If you want the tension to be reasonably close to "typical" then you will need to have heavier gage strings to accomplish that. Arx is spot on.

Given a consistent scale length and string tension a heavier gage string will vibrate slower due to it's mass. You aren't trying to over tension the strings. You are just trying to get them taught enough not to be flopping around.

Greg N

[Arx]

Originally Posted by shai-ga

Arx,
I understand that the tension is affected only inside the scale length area,
but there are so many basses out there with medium to very short scales,
from Fodera Garrison 33" to some 28-30" basses, that must have some sort of improvement to insure a high tension strings, don't they?
Is it all up to strings weight?

Yep.

you can set it up with looser strings in mind, possibly a slightly higher action (it might not feel as high, since the strings will be easier to fret) Make sure your fretting is good, since looser strings might be a bit more likely to hit the frets and buzz, etc.

Really there's nothing special to make a short scale bass good that wouldn't be equally well applied to a long scale.

I think the "loose B string" everyone talks about is either in their heads (it may have setup problems, but tension isn't it), or they're playing in the guitar shop with a bass that they've tuned to itself, and is flat all around.

Just build it the best you can, set it up well, and you should do just fine.

If the necessarily looser strings don't work with your playing, find yourself some extra fat strings. Maybe you could even get an F# string and use one string fatter all the way up. I don't know for sure though, it might end up too tight.

[black_labb]

slightly off topic, but i would like to know why people think that stringing the string through the body makes it feel tighter. in my mind it would work the opposite way, as there would be some extra string that would be stretching, in fact making it floppier if it actually makes a difference.

so for any supporters of the theory, hows it supposed to work?

im curious as i am making a 5 stringer and im wondering if i should mod the bridge to put the strings through the body

[bongomania]

I have owned a lot of short and medium scale basses, at a wide range of price point and build quality. I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle. There will always be people on here, who took a physics class once, who insist that the only factors affecting tension are length and diameter. They are thinking in a very limited way, as though all strings had equal flexibility or damping qualities, or as though a bass made of pieces of wood bolted together was a perfect rigid plane. But as a string is plucked, it changes tension. It will change tension during that time to a greater or lesser degree depending on the resonant qualities of all of the connected parts in relation to each other.

Unfortunately there is no magic formula. Even building a super-rigid neck-through bass may not necessarily give you the desired results, as every piece of wood has different resonant/damping qualities, especially in relation to different strings.

That's why a 32" from a highly-skilled artisan luthier may have a better chance of having "good tension" compared to an average production bass. They both use similar materials, but the artisan luthier spends a lot of time carefully selecting woods, learning their subtleties, and making careful combination choices while building; whereas a production bass is made out of whatever shipment of lumber met the specs closely enough that day.

I'm not pretending that a 30" scale can be identical in every way to a 35" scale. But I am saying there is a great deal more to the equation than merely scale length and string diameter.

[Arx]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I have owned a lot of short and medium scale basses, at a wide range of price point and build quality. I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle. There will always be people on here, who took a physics class once, who insist that the only factors affecting tension are length and diameter. They are thinking in a very limited way, as though all strings had equal flexibility or damping qualities, or as though a bass made of pieces of wood bolted together was a perfect rigid plane. But as a string is plucked, it changes tension. It will change tension during that time to a greater or lesser degree depending on the resonant qualities of all of the connected parts in relation to each other.

Unfortunately there is no magic formula. Even building a super-rigid neck-through bass may not necessarily give you the desired results, as every piece of wood has different resonant/damping qualities, especially in relation to different strings.

That's why a 32" from a highly-skilled artisan luthier may have a better chance of having "good tension" compared to an average production bass. They both use similar materials, but the artisan luthier spends a lot of time carefully selecting woods, learning their subtleties, and making careful combination choices while building; whereas a production bass is made out of whatever shipment of lumber met the specs closely enough that day.

I'm not pretending that a 30" scale can be identical in every way to a 35" scale. But I am saying there is a great deal more to the equation than merely scale length and string diameter.

And what effect does this alleged difference in dynamic tension have on anything? (A serious question, not being an ass this time )

Also, how would you observe this effect?

-Nick

[WarriorJoe7]

Yes very possible. Have a super solid neck (graphite or grahite reinforced. My Jack read is a laminate neck with purpleheart stringers.) Also have a good breaking angle across the nut. Also have a neckthough design or a very very good neck/body joint.

Also I must say that these don't affect tension in the least bit, BUT they make the string seem less flabby (and I am going to make an assumption that this is really what your after.)

The only way to keep good tension technically is to a) have a longer scale length b) have a fatter string c) have strings that are high tension (stiff strings like some falwounds have this effect too without having higer string tension though.)

[Unicornbass]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I have owned a lot of short and medium scale basses, at a wide range of price point and build quality. I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle. There will always be people on here, who took a physics class once, who insist that the only factors affecting tension are length and diameter. They are thinking in a very limited way, as though all strings had equal flexibility or damping qualities, or as though a bass made of pieces of wood bolted together was a perfect rigid plane. But as a string is plucked, it changes tension. It will change tension during that time to a greater or lesser degree depending on the resonant qualities of all of the connected parts in relation to each other.

Unfortunately there is no magic formula. Even building a super-rigid neck-through bass may not necessarily give you the desired results, as every piece of wood has different resonant/damping qualities, especially in relation to different strings.

That's why a 32" from a highly-skilled artisan luthier may have a better chance of having "good tension" compared to an average production bass. They both use similar materials, but the artisan luthier spends a lot of time carefully selecting woods, learning their subtleties, and making careful combination choices while building; whereas a production bass is made out of whatever shipment of lumber met the specs closely enough that day.

I'm not pretending that a 30" scale can be identical in every way to a 35" scale. But I am saying there is a great deal more to the equation than merely scale length and string diameter.

Nicely put! It´s not that easy to narrow down one or two factors (no pun intended) that governs the process. Nowadays we build lots of 32" basses. It seems that these are very popular and we have NO problems with floppy B-strings whatsoever. Experiment yourself! Do not go up in gauge, go up in quality instead and THEN see if you need heavier strings. On the fuzz guitarshow, gothenburg we had a 3200 series 4-string bass tuned down to B with a .100 string of our own brand and that was very composed. Try different stuff but buy very good strings.

DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a commercial spot for us in any way. If taken so, i appologise.

[jordan_frerichs]

Originally Posted by steve21

Make a very stable, strong neck.

i would imaging a neck through would help

[Arx]

Everyone should try and keep things straight though... There's no reason a low tension string can't be nice to play, and when I say that the only way to significantly increase tension on a given scale is to increase string weight (Higher tension strings in the same guage can only do it by being heavier) I'm not trying to imply that all the other build techniques can't make the instrument more playable, but in a pure sense they're not increasing tension.

[Mushroo]

Hi Shai-Ga, I have a 30" bass that I use "regular" (medium-light 34" scale) strings on. If you look in the classifieds, there's a "basslet" for sale that uses regular strings on a 19" scale. I think that your 32" scale bass will sound and feel just fine, no special accommodations necessary. It will feel a little different than a 34" scale, but I am assuming if you wanted 34", you would build it that way Like several other posters have mentioned, you can just bump the string gauge up a notch or two, if you like, to find a comfortable tension, or just use a set that's designed for short-scale bass. Lots and lots of bassists from Paul McCartney to Jack Bruce to Stanley Clarke have made wonderful music on short scale basses.

[Rodent]

bongomania - I believe you have confused physical string tension (what is required to tune it to pitch) with relative 'stiffness' (the feel of a string when plucked and/or fretted)

I have found that most players who are looking for increased tension are actually looking for increased string stiffness

all the best,

R

[highwattage]

in addition to heavy gauge get hex core (in flats if possible). Also when buying strings the amount of increase in gauge should increase as the strings get larger. Ex:

34"/35" 32"
40 43
60 65
80 85/90
100 110 or heavier

If you can't get good tension, as a last resort I would make it a tenor bass & tune it C G D A like wooten does.

[Arx]

Originally Posted by highwattage

in addition to heavy gauge get hex core (in flats if possible). Also when buying strings the amount of increase in gauge should increase as the strings get larger. Ex:

34"/35" 32"
40 43
60 65
80 85/90
100 110 or heavier

If you can't get good tension, as a last resort I would make it a tenor bass & tune it C G D A like wooten does.

I believe the hex core and flats will mainly give you a stiffer, less flexible string, and not actually higher tension.

He's doing a 5 string, I think.

Doesn't matter really. 32 isn't all that much shorter than 34 that I'd expect any problems.

[shai-ga]

Originally Posted by Rodent

bongomania - I believe you have confused physical string tension (what is required to tune it to pitch) with relative 'stiffness' (the feel of a string when plucked and/or fretted)

I have found that most players who are looking for increased tension are actually looking for increased string stiffness

all the best,

R

I'm not sure I get the meaning of stiffness when talking about a string. I mean, a string is like a rope, you can talk about the stiffness of its material (mechanic propety), and probably about it's ability to bend.
Are you referring to one of these?
Can you tell a bit more about the difference between tension and stiffness?

I've got two main problems that lead me to build a 32" instrument:

1.I want a small body shape for the bass. (very small)
2.I hold the bass very high.

So in this case, a longer scale makes it impossible to reach the lower frets.