8 string octive basses... what are the rules?

[jordan_frerichs]

i have always like the idea of an 8 string. never played one. don't know anything about them, other than i want one. thought it would be fitting to make my 32" scale semi-hollow j single-cut an 8 string. what should the spacing between the strings be at the nut/bridge? i was originally planing to make the nut width 1.5" (j bass size) i assume it will need to be bigger, because of the extra strings (both to fit them on, and to comfortably fret them correctly) what would you recomend for the nut width? the pups are pole piece j (basslines Quarter pound), not bar magnets, so the bridge spacing needs to be close to 2.5". don't know if that will make it a problem.how are 8 strings for slap playing? what comes first, the bass string, or the octive string (i asume the otive string, for slap playing)? where could i find a good black 8 string bridge. i want the nut to be wood with a zero fret. i am worried about sloting it for strings, that the nut material between the octive and bass strings will brake. will it? should i go with a different nut material? what? anything else i should know?

[Darkstrike]

I will try to help,

Nut, a little wider, some use standard sizes, about 1.7, would be suitable, I can measure mine tomorrow for you, if you like.

Slapping, is very awkward, it the pops more than anything.

Pickups, standard will be fine, the octaves are so close that the standard pole will be fine.

Bridge, get a Schaller, from Warmoth, comes in black, all eight strings are intonatable.

Stringing, octaves on top, bass on bottom is most popular, Rickenbacker used to do it opposite, all down to personal tasts.
If you explain what you want the bass for, I can try to help, for slap, its irrelevant which order they are in, mine are octaves on top, and it works for me.

I'd be wary of a wood nut, I'd go with brass, if you use wood, choose a hardwood, and soak it in superglue for strength.

[jordan_frerichs]

brass sounds like a challenge to slot and shape. is it? thanx for the idea. super glue sounds like a pain. what about epoxy? i have vignum vitae, bloodwood and other hgardwoods that are good canidate for wood nuts. do these sound good for an 8 string nut? what do you recomend? what guage should the octives be, relative to the bass strings? what about the action of the octives, relative to the bass strings? it appears that the Schaller needs to be slotted. i am worried about that, as i have not done it. i could probebly get the correct files from the highschool metal shop (come to think of it, i could do that for the brass nut too, just hope they got the right sizes...)

[Darkstrike]

I dunno much about hardwoods, so I'd just choose a non oily one, cut, slot and shape it. Then soak it in superglue, or epoxy, I also know little about epoxy, but I often soak wook in superglue when repairing my axes, its easy, but you gotta be careful.

I guess the Bloodwood would be a good option, I've heard of it being used for nuts before.

Brass, I dunno how hard to cut, but to shape and slot is easy enough.

Octaves action should match the bass strings, no point in having them higher, and lower would make it harder to fret the bass strings, think like an acoustic 12 string guitars saddle, its the same height for both octave and bass.

I'll have guages from a spare pack I have for you in a miniute.

[Darkstrike]

My eight string has a 44mm nut, compared to my Jazzez 38mm nut, the eight feels good to me this way, but a little tighter would be ok, I'd stick with 44, or 45mm for myelf though.

Guages on a standard D'Addario longscale set are as follows,

E - Bass .100, Octave .050,
A - Bass .080, Octave .040,
D - Bass .065, Octave .028,
G - Bass .045, Octave .018.(Unwound)

Hope that all helps.

If you can get the schaller bridge, that will keep both bass and octaves action correct to each other, I think.

[agreatheight]

I'll jump in where I think I can help.

Slap and pop is VERY difficult on an 8 string.

Usually the octave string is toward the ceiling and it's matching octave is toward the floor, but I have seen it occaisonally the other way.

Warmoth sells a Schaller 8 string bridge: http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/brid...n=schaller_471

[mikeyswood]

My Biches are the same as my 4 stringers for dimensions. I would say that if you are able to shape lignum vitae then you can shape brass.

For spacing I changed mine to normal four string and fit the octave below the E and A and above the D and G. That was just my personal taste.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by jordan_frerichs

i have vignum vitae, bloodwood and other hgardwoods that are good canidate for wood nuts. do these sound good for an 8 string nut?

Do you mean "sound good tone-wise" or "sound good for use in the application?" Because, tone-wise, A) any sound from a nut is lost once you play at the first fret or higher (on a standard-nut bass) B) you are using a zero fret, so the nut material has virtually zero affect on tone, even on on open string. That's part of the idea.

Witha zero fret bass, the nut is basically a string separator.

A question to ask might be, why do you want a wooden "nut?"

If you want the nut to be wood and are (probably rightly) afraid of the thin piece of wood from between the octave pairs snapping off, you could try this: one wide groove for each octave pair, with an appropriately sized steel dowel pin inserted to separate them. Looking something like this, viewed down the neck (section ("x-ray") view shown):

 __    _    _____    _    _____    _    _____    _    __
|  \  | |  /     \  | |  /     \  | |  /     \  | |  /  |
|   \_| |_/       \_| |_/       \_| |_/       \_| |_/   |
|     | |           | |           | |           | |     |
|     |_|           |_|           |_|           |_|     |

[Oric]

the octave strings should be in tune with their friends. Unless you're going for a chorus effect sort of thing

[Taylor Livingston]

Originally Posted by Oric

the octave strings should be in tune with their friends. Unless you're going for a chorus effect sort of thing

What is this in response to? Tuning the octaves slightly sharp or flat will not give you a chorus sound on an 8-string. You need 2 strings tuned to nearly the same pitch; the chorus effect is lost if they are separated by an octave.

That said, you can tune the "octave" pairs to any interval you like. I have done major 9ths, minor 9ths, major 7ths, minor 7ths, and fifths, with interesting results. Michael Manring has a tune called "The Fire Sermon", played on a 10-string (doubled 5) tuned from low to high:

BB F#B BC# C#F# F#C#

With the intervals

octave - 4th - maj2nd (or maj9th?) - 4th - 5th

So, to answer the question in this thread's title, there clearly are no rules.

[Oric]

I was being silly

[jordan_frerichs]

i think i will do a brass nut okay, so what about the tuners for th octive strings? I already have the tuners for the bass strings. how will i find ones for the same thickness of headstock? is a guitar headstock thinner? will i nedd to counter sink the guitar string tuners?

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by jordan_frerichs

i think i will do a brass nut okay, so what about the tuners for th octive strings? I already have the tuners for the bass strings. how will i find ones for the same thickness of headstock? is a guitar headstock thinner? will i nedd to counter sink the guitar string tuners?

Guitar tuners are whats on mine for the octaves, and they're not countersunk.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Guitar tuners are whats on mine for the octaves, and they're not countersunk.

Same here.

[jordan_frerichs]

thanx. i am guessing that the headstock will be slightly longer. how thick should i plane the headstock to, and at what angle should i do the scarf? I came up with my own method for a scarf join, that i want to see is decent.

[pilotjones]

Jordan, if you haven't already, you should get one of the recommended books. My library had Hiscock's.

[jordan_frerichs]

i have hiscock's book. i find it amusing that my project is turning into build 3 of his book in most ways (neck-through, 32" scale, 8-string, ect)