Acoustic, fretted, upright bass guitar?

Bruce (the K) · #1 09-14-2007, 02:27 PM

Hello bassists.

What are the challenges with having a steel-stringed, acoustic, fretted bass guitar built that has an extra large body and is designed to be played as a stand up bass? It would not be bowed, would not be used for jazz or sophisticated stuff, just for 3 and 4 chord folk rock and simple pop tunes. It also would have to be loud enough (unamplified) to hold its own with two steel-stringed acoustic guitars and a small, cocktail drum set being played with Cool Rods (bundled dowels that provide a volume between brushes and solid drum sticks).

My four-piece band is heavy on vocals (lots of 2 and 3 part harmonies). We play electric with a p.a. system but we also really like playing unplugged, acoustic gigs where we just sing over our acoustic instruments. The guitars work great with the cocktail drum, played softly using the Cool Rods, but the acoustic bass guitar is pretty much inaudible. I think part of it is the instrument (an old Ovation Applause AE-140), which is not very loud, but I wonder if any acoustic-electric bass guitar would do the job unamplified. It just makes sense to me that providing a bigger body (for more volume) that is too big to be played guitar-style means standing it up and playing it upright. My thinking has also been influenced by the mariachi-style guitarrón. It just seems that those are getting big enough that it would be easier for a smaller player to turn it upright and stand next to it (with the appropriate end pin to hold it up). Our bass player is about 5’7” tall.

I think it’s more realistic to create what we’re jokingly referring to as the Frankenbass than to ask our bass player to learn to play a traditional fretless acoustic upright bass. Plus, it seems to me that this instrument could be a bit smaller (and a lot cheaper to build) than a traditional upright bass, given that it could have a guitar-style braced body with flat front and back. I don’t know if the steel strings used by acoustic bass guitars are any louder than the strings used by traditional upright bass players so please comment on that as well.

Any thoughts you all have on this idea would be appreciated.

Bruce (the K)

FunkyFlashFive · #2 09-14-2007, 03:19 PM

you could build a banjozilla like this one

details bout it are here.

meev992 · #3 09-14-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunkyFlashFive

you could build a banjozilla like this one

details bout it are here.

that's a travesty

cricketfever32 · #4 09-14-2007, 03:39 PM

alternative: Urb isn't that difficult to play IME, you can dig a new one up for 800 bonesish,

another alternative: You could build an eub (electric upright bass) which isn't that difficult to build nor is it as insanely expensive as an upright acoustic and since its much simpler than a fretted acoustic bass you can make one in no time

answer to your steel strings question: Steel guitar strings aren't much more louder, its just that the strings are being plucked (picked) harder sometimes than other, mostly the loudness is about the same otherwise

MBXB · #5 09-14-2007, 03:40 PM

Try a Godin A4 or A5 fretted bass. It's semi hollow, active electronics, on board EQ. You can get any sound out of it. The signal is hot enough to run direct to the board. (Use 2 9V batteries in series)
I have both fretted and fretless. They are great!

pilotjones · #6 09-14-2007, 03:46 PM

I think one of your first choices would be scale length - bass guitar length, or upright length.

Upright double bass viols are in the 41-42" scale range; this means that they are at pretty high tension. The higher tension means it requires more energy to pluck; the increased energy thus imparted then moves a greater string mass (from the longer length), serving to make more mechanical energy available for acoustic sound production.

Simply making a large body and using a 34" scale length should serve to move the resonant frequencies down, which should help all by itself. Increasing the scale length should help more.

Either way, I think having a very large flat top would require some serious thought as to bracing design. It's got to be structurally sound even at the larger size, but without being too stiff. I guess this is the normal flat top guitar challenge, but I would expect it to be harder in this case.

If you went with the 41" scale and high tension, even moreso. You might have to go with a floating tailpiece with the strings anchored at the butt, like a violin or a jazz archtop, because using conventional acoustic guitar bridge dead-end anchoring for four strings at 60-70 pounds tension each would probably wreck the top (unless it was so stiff as to be acoustically dead).

BTW there's a guitarron in a store near me. It sounds really beautiful. A few people have inquired here about converting one into a BG, but the consensus was that the top, and possibly the neck, would not hold up.

Taylor Livingston · #7 09-14-2007, 04:01 PM

There's this rule that the soundboard of an acoustic isntrument should be half as long and wide as the wavelength of the lowest note it's trying to reproduce. The wavelength of the low E on a bass is something like 8 meters long, whereas the soundboard on an upright is only around one meter tall and less than 1m wide. So the upright bass is already a major compromise to make the instrument more playable (imagine a bass with a 4 meter/12 foot soundboard! It would probably sound great, though...)

So the acoustic bass guitar is an even greater compromise, and I can't say that I've ever been satisfied with the volume or low end of an ABG I've played.

I think you would be best off getting a cheap upright bass. Building an acoustic bass in any shape is going to cost you more than a cheap bass from eBay, and will take a considerable amount of time and trial and error and your result will still probably not sound as good. As for playing it, it's way easier than you might think, particularly if you're playing simple folk and pop tunes.

wilser · #8 09-14-2007, 04:36 PM

no matter what you wanna call that thing, it's an upright banjo.

ponticat · #9 09-14-2007, 06:27 PM

How 'bout a resonator bass like Dobro made in the early 1930s?

These dudes had some pretty cool hats, too!

scottyd · #10 09-14-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponticat

How 'bout a resonator bass like Dobro made in the early 1930s?

These dudes had some pretty cool hats, too!

Man those cats are COOL!

meev992 · #11 09-14-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyd

Man those cats are COOL!

why are they playing in front of an airplane

???

ponticat · #12 09-14-2007, 07:02 PM

They are "The Early Byrds" performing "Eight Miles High."

scottyd · #13 09-14-2007, 07:21 PM

Still, as cool as those cats are, they aint got nothing on the dude standing with then that just so happens to be playing pocket pool! He actually appears to be trying to hide it with his hat!

FunkyFlashFive · #14 09-15-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyd

Still, as cool as those cats are, they aint got nothing on the dude standing with then that just so happens to be playing pocket pool! He actually appears to be trying to hide it with his hat!

until you said it i hadn't even noticed. it is a bit obvious isn't it?

Bruce (the K) · #15 10-05-2007, 03:03 PM

I'm curious to get your reactions to this instrument.

More info at: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/instruments/canotto.htm

It has a 34 inch scale like a bass guitar and a fretboard set up for plucking rather than for bowing. If it had frets installed, it seems like it would be a very easy transition for my bass player.

Anybody have any thoughts on it?

Cristofre · #16 11-09-2007, 12:57 PM

I have been looking to do the exact same thing. I play bass guitar and upright bass, but there are times when I want something smaller than an upright, but much louder than your average acoustic bass guitar.

Another caveat is that it should be fretted so that anyone can play it. My band does acoustic gigs and we switch instruments around occasionally. The guitarists in the band cannot make head nor tails of my upright but are decent bass guitarists.

I have thought of building something the size of a guitarrón or a cello with a bass guitar style neck, but being a musician, I don't have the funds to spend lots of dough.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

Dusty G · #17 11-09-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyd

Still, as cool as those cats are, they aint got nothing on the dude standing with then that just so happens to be playing pocket pool! He actually appears to be trying to hide it with his hat!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Line of the thread! Good eye, Scotty!

Dusty G · #18 11-09-2007, 08:35 PM

Sorry, I got distracted... Get an upright bass. I would certainly be interesting if you went ahead and put some frets in it. Otherwise, you could make fret-lines either by inlaying them, or simply drawing them on, until he gets used to it.

dman_113 · #19 11-09-2007, 09:50 PM

I'd maybe take a bass neck off of ebay and find a block of suitable wood route a neck pocket out put a pick-up and a bridge on it and make a tri pod.

Bruce (the K) · #20 11-14-2007, 02:55 PM

Thank you, Cristofre. At last, somebody gets what I'm talking about. An easy to play (meaning fretted), easy for a guitarist or electric bassist (meaning 34 inch scale), loud enough to be heard acoustically (meaning big and upright rather than guitar-sized and horizontal) bass instrument.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this suitcase bass kit?

Has a flat fingerboard but it's fretless and has a 41 inch scale. Seems like you could easily make a 34 inch scale fretted bass guitar style neck for it, since the neck is designed to be detachable.

More info here:

http://www.musikit.com/Merchant2/mer...gory_Code=bass