Bass with stronger fundamentals

[superbassman2000]

I was just reading this article on harmony central and its about a guitar that is made strickly for MIDI use. It says in the article

latching on to the fundamental frequency of the string has been a challenge for MIDI guitar interfaces. Now, MIDI-Max makes it easier and has less of a chance for glitches.

and i knew the about the first sentence with MIDI needing a strong fundamental to pick up faster (and cut down latency), but i was just wondering, what exactly did he do?
and my main question is "what can be done for a bass so that the fundamental comes out stronger?

i'm not even really looking for real-life efficiency, just what would have to be done

Thanks
Charlie

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I'm not sure what you are wanting to do, but as far as I can tell this guitar has a passive pickup system which picks up and outputs more of the fundamental of the string. I'm not sure what is meant by "No Added Active Devices", as if the sensor system is optical as it appears to be then it necessarily has active devices in it. Regardless, the increased fundamental appears to have to do with the pickup system.

[superbassman2000]

ok,
so part two of the question would be how would you wind a pickup to get more of the fundamentals?

[erikbojerik]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

what can be done for a bass so that the fundamental comes out stronger?

Having some real stiff lams in the neck definitely helps. Ebony is the cat's meow, but purpleheart, wenge or bloodwood also do well. As do carbon fiber reinforcement rods (they're lighter).

[jwymore]

Originally Posted by erikbojerik

Having some real stiff lams in the neck definitely helps. Ebony is the cat's meow, but purpleheart, wenge or bloodwood also do well. As do carbon fiber reinforcement rods (they're lighter).

Actually wouldn't a stiffer design tend to also have a higher resonant frequency which would tend have less damping of harmonics and posiibly (depending on the resonant frequency) even add to them?

It seems to me if you want to bring out the fundamental you might actually want less stiffness. As an example I have heard many complaints about Warmoth necks sounding brighter than Fender necks due to the added section and steel bars. If you compare them side by side the Warmoth neck is way more rigid and to my ears for sure brighter.

I suppose the same may be said for the design of the pickup. If you wind for a lower resonant frequency you should pick up more fundamental versus harmonics.

Of course you could also just filter out the harmonics electrically ...

[NamelessOne]

make it 12 frets and put the pickup in the fret 15 position?

[erikbojerik]

Originally Posted by jwymore

Actually wouldn't a stiffer design tend to also have a higher resonant frequency which would tend have less damping of harmonics and posiibly (depending on the resonant frequency) even add to them?

It seems to me if you want to bring out the fundamental you might actually want less stiffness.

It is true, the added stiffness does raise the resonant freq and give you access to more harmonics. But to my ears, the fundamental sustains longer than in a less-stiff design.

[paintandsk8]

Originally Posted by erikbojerik

It is true, the added stiffness does raise the resonant freq and give you access to more harmonics. But to my ears, the fundamental sustains longer than in a less-stiff design.

In the alembic section of the "American Basses" book you will find this qoute:

"Ebony Laminates emphasize sustain of a notes fundamental, while all other woods focus the energy in the second harmonic (which is true of all stringed instruments). In combination with certain body woods, like those in the rosewood family, ,the resulting sound is phenomenal."

They later state that a bass with "amazing fundamental sustain" consists of a laminated maple and ebony neck in a through neck design with a mahogany core and cocobolo top and back.

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by NamelessOne

make it 12 frets and put the pickup in the fret 15 position?

that sounds like it might be a good idea...can anyone verify that?

or would it be to make something like a 10 fret neck and put the pickup at the 12th fret?

[Dusty G]

Please criticise me as much as possible, as I'm here to learn, but it seems to me that denser woods that absorb less frequencies emphasize the fundamental note, simply because they absorb less energy from the string. Since the sound comes from the string itself, I guess the ultimate sound is the string minus whatever frequencies the wood absorbes. And then, of course, the electronics and pickup positioning and all that are factors after the fact, of course..........????

[erikbojerik]

EDIT: weird time-travel double post

EDIT2: I've seen some pretty interesting designs with magnetic pickups blended nicely into the fretboard; do a Google search on "John Paul Jones triple neck" to see one.

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

that sounds like it might be a good idea...can anyone verify that?

or would it be to make something like a 10 fret neck and put the pickup at the 12th fret?

The amplitude of the fundamental would be highest halfway between the fret being played and the saddle. The 12th fret would be ideal for the open string but not for any fretted notes. You'd have to come up with a trade-off location based probably on what range you play in most. Namelessones suggestion of the 15th fret location probably wouldn't be too far off, though I'd probably move it to the 17th fret location or so as I mainly play in the 0 - 12th fret range.

[superbassman2000]

so what if i were to have a 10 fret neck, and then make a huge pickup to range from the 12th fret to the 17th fret? *
or i could do the atlansia thing and get those little mini-pickups that they have and make a grid of them from the 12th to the 17th fret?
kinda like this ->



*i'm not actually going to do that, i am just thinking in thoery

[Geoff St. Germaine]

The only thing that I'd be worried about is that in such a case you will only have 12 frets. If that's enough for you then it's cool. I saw a bass once that had a pickup in between two frets and I wondered what it would sound like when you fret a note above that pickup on the neck. It might get some nasty sounds.

[superbassman2000]

well, i don't plan on actually doing this anytime soon, maybe not at all, but i have been thinking about MIDI for my bass for probably the last 2-3 years, and the lag has really been a turn off...granted brian moore made a USB out for guitar which might be the next step in MIDI, but i don't know...but i was just trying to think up ways to cut the tracking lag by as much as i can
i could also make a bass along the lines of a peavey cyberbass and put piezos at every single fret

that'd be really expensive though

[pilotjones]

A pickup will get the same frequency response in either of the two spots that are the same distance from the center of the vibrating portion of the string. This is also equivalent to saying that a pickup will get the same frequency response in either of the two spots that are the same distance from either end of the vibrating portion of the string. So, if you are fretting at the 12th fret and the pup is at the 14th fret position, then for that position and note, the pup is approximately 2" from the 12th fret, and it will get pretty much the same tone as it would have if it were 2" from the bridge, in Jazz bridge position. An advantage in fundamental strength is only really gained here when you are playing near the nut, so the pup is close to the string center.

If you had a 12-fret fretboard and you wanted the pup to closest to the vibrating string center for an "average" of the available fretted notes, then you would place it at the 18th fret position, which is the center of the vibrating string for the 6th fret notes.

But all of this makes for a fairly un-useful bass. Consider that you want, for the purposes of signal-to-pitch conversion for MIDI, to have a strong fundamental; but what you really need is a strong fundamental with respect to the other harmonics. IMO, the best way to get this, without even concerning ones self with pup placement, is to build a neck that does not promote wolf tones. The best way to do this is to go stiff, and lightweight, moving the neck's resonant frequency up beyond the range of the fundamentals and the first few harmonics.

Consider that the Roland pickups, placed all the way at the bridge, do still work pretty well. And Roland may have been pretty smart in making that synth-driver bass with the extra graphite arm attaching to the headstock.

A good thing for this kind of conversion might be a different filter network for each string, each one a bandpass type, tuned to the expected fundamental range for that string. Then again, your biggest problem would still be coming from "Fender dead spot" -type wolf tones, which would be within the range of the filter, and so not be aided by the filter.



Regarding Hoag's pickups, they are an optical pickup, similar to Lightwave pickups in principle. I keep wishing Hoag would get a professional-looking website, and less amateurish looking body designs, so that he could compete in the marketplace.

This stuff:

Originally Posted by Hoag website

hoag's design philosophy "keep it simple" has allowed for less latency then other pickups. the use of fewer parts and no added active devices, is the plus factor here. the higher output is the main contributing factor. k-max pickups have not been amplified to get this output. it comes directly off the pickup and can reach as high as the applied voltage source.

seems to me to be without merit.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

i could also make a bass along the lines of a peavey cyberbass ...

A store near me has just put one of these out for sale. It might be a NOS that was dragged up from the basement. If you're interested, I could check it out for you.

[superbassman2000]

sure
what kind of price are they asking?

btw, that is a great post
so what you are saying can be exemplified by a modulus bass i saw for sale on TB earlier, it had a "sweetspot" pickup...so that is the same distance from the bridge as it is the neck, right?
or something like that?

[pilotjones]

Sort of. I was just trying to point out that a pup at the center of the open string is nowhere near the center of the string when fretting, and suggesting a way to find a "compromise" pup position, for the hypothetical 12-fret bass.

I'll check on the midibass/cyberbass in the next few days.

[superbassman2000]

i understand now thanks

and thanks for checking on the price