body wood and sustain

[kimstevens]

I know that wood/tone discussions aren't very popular (for good reasons!), but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the sustain properties/note envelope smoothness between a light weight body such as basswood and a heavy one such as maple, given the same neck. I have a heavy all-maple bass that has a smooth, sustaining tone that I love, and I'd like to put something together (with parts) that keeps the sustain but has a lighter weight. Maybe that's impossible... but, any input would be welcome prior to purchasing the parts. I guess the crux of the question would be: is it overwhelmingly about the neck, or does the body mass play a significant (20% plus) role in this issue?

[mikeyswood]

Are you able to chose the color of your kids eyes? No. You accept what you get. Tone is not a building material and certainly sustain isn't either.

We could all espouse what species does what, and then you could get a piece within that species that is completely different. "Swamp" Ash is the same as "Northern" Ash and there are some here that will tell you that they are not the same.

[Musiclogic]

Sustain is an effect of construction and electronics, not bodywood in a solidbody instrument.

[kimstevens]

Thanks. I had thought body mass would be a factor.

[NKUSigEp]

I'd be willing to venture that denser woods would have less of a dampening effect on string vibration, assuming the strings are tied to the body in such a way that wood density COULD have an effect.

[Musiclogic]

Originally Posted by NKUSigEp

I'd be willing to venture that denser woods would have less of a dampening effect on string vibration, assuming the strings are tied to the body in such a way that wood density COULD have an effect.

Sustain blocks have been added to bodies and necks, the blocks in bodies never really caught on as the resonance of solid blocks of wood with so many added pieces is generally of little to no consequence for added sustain. The brass plates for headstocks(mainly Fender) are still available, but not too often seen either, due to dive issues. Pick-ups and electronics have proven to be the big suppliment to create better tone and sustain in solid bodied instruments.

As to your denser woods theory, allow me to take you back to the school of tonewood for a moment.

(Q) Woods used as tone generating woods for Acoustic instruments in luthierie.
(A) The benchmarks for tonewoods are; Spruce and Cedar due to the resonant qualities they possess. Resonance not found in almost all hardwoods.

(Q) Aren't spruce and cedars softwoods
(A) Yes, and these 2 types of wood have long tight and strong grain that retain a resonant quality not found in almost any other woods worldwide.

Hard dense woods do not resonate well because they are usually oily, have interlocking grain, or have compressed tension within the structure which all combat resonance. This is why hardwoods are rarely used for soundboards on acoustics and spruce and cedar are almost exclusive along with the ocassional hard wood or larch.

Take this to heart, and read any book you can find on the tonal properties of wood from Stradivari to present, you will learn much.

[Diogenes]

That's what I like about the Luthier's Corner... there are so many diplomatic, varying yet correct answers.

[Musiclogic]

nothing diplomatic or varying about this, it's quite well studied over the past 800 years if one is willing to do the research.

[mikeyswood]

But if you burst the myth, JC, kids won't spend three year's allowance on that "special" piece from the luthier that is selling the snakeoilwood.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Sustain is an effect of construction and electronics, not bodywood in a solidbody instrument.

You make a bass out of Pine and you might find that to not be the case...

But I would agree that the oft-tortured debate about Alder/Ash/Mahogany is just a bit much...

I'll say this: The OP says he has a solid maple body bass -- I've played a few of those and flat-out hated them. Very brittle sounding, to my ear. There are good reasons that builder after builder has chooses Alder, Ash or Mahogany for their bodies.

[the yeti]

what about chambered? if you like the maple and went with a chambered body what effect would that have on sustain? apologies in advance if that's percieved as a hi-jack... or a stupid question.

[Musiclogic]

Originally Posted by mikeyswood

But if you burst the myth, JC, kids won't spend three year's allowance on that "special" piece from the luthier that is selling the snakeoilwood.

LMFAO Mike Hold on....Does Mikeyswood have red hair and a VanDyke(what most refer to as a goatee....another myth)
My head is shaved and have the moustache.....hmmmm I think there is a show like this

[pilotjones]

A couple of days ago I played a set with foam under the strings to reduce sustain. Sustain is generally overrated IMO.

[pilotjones]

AFA the position that nothing physical affects tone, that is as misguided as the idea that you can precisely shape tone by following wood formulas (IMO, and based on arguments from physics).

As evidence by experiment, Geoff St. Germaine's fantastic custom Dingwall had a wooden bridge sub-plate. Later Sheldon replaced this with a brass one, and the tone changed. The only weakness of the experiment is potential confirmation bias, since a tone change was the desired result.

[mikeyswood]

I'm pretty sure that most luthiers will agree that there is a difference, Pete. My position is that the difference in the "tone" from the woods is unethical to market for a solidbody instrument.

I have Maple with properties lower that some Basswoods and Basswood with properties higher than some Maple. For me to claim that Maple is [insert subjective term here] more than Basswood would be completely misleading.

[Musiclogic]

My point is that the resonance of a solid wood body has little to no effect on tone or sustain, and the falicies put forth by so many about tonewood properties in a solid bodied instrument. Atmospheric conditions will effect a solid bodied tone and sustain more than the type of wood used due specifically to the way pick-ups are potted and sealed these days, and how discreet most electronics are. Too many people have been herded into the tonewood cult with absolutely NO understanding what a tonewood is and how the acoustic effect works on an instrument in conjunction with the wood. The effect is only in an acoustic instrument, as you have to have a sound chamber for the vibration to resonate off of properly and reflect into the soundstream to be able to discern differences. This cannot be properly demonstrated in a solidbodied instrument with the human ear. You will get 10 different responses from 10 different people. Changing from a wood to a brass bridge directly effects that which the string contacts, and thus directly effects the sound. Brass allows the string to vibrate more without the dampening effect of wood. Exactly where physics will apply.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

A couple of days ago I played a set with foam under the strings to reduce sustain. Sustain is generally overrated IMO.

Agreed. In the '70s, "Sustain" was ALL the thing. Why? Dunno. But for some reason, everyone wanted guitars and basses that would really "Sustain" (there's even a reference to this in "This is Spinal Tap"...). Hence Fender's being made of insanely heavy slabs of Ash and the advent of hard-tailed strats...

I can *almost* see the "cult of sustain" thing for a guitar, but for bass? The longest note I play on a bass is no more than 4 beats - how bad would a bass be if it can't deal with THAT?

[andylaw8]

In my opinion, if you like the tone and sustain of an all maple bass but you dont like the weight- you should buy a chambered (weight relieved) maple bass. In my experience, chambering a bass has not negatively affected the sustain or tonal properties. In some cases it can lower the frequency of the resonant pstch just a bit. But I would say that in most cases the changes to the tone have been very pleasant ones with a chambered bass. Benavente builds some nice single cut chambered basses. You may want to speak with him.

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by mikeyswood

"Swap" Ash

I went to a party where I got to swap ash. That's probably not a suitable story for this forum though.

[mikeyswood]

Sounds like fun!