Brazilian red Cedar and Brazilian Maple and Ash sounds

[Lincoln]

Hi,
Does anyone know what Brazilian Red Cedar and Brazilian Maple and Ash sound like in comparison the North American versions? How Heavy are the woods?

[Thiago Vianna]

As a Brazilian, I can tell some things about local woods:

Red Cedar - I don't think we have Red Cedar here. We have tons of Spanish Cedar(Cedrella Odorota). Maybe it's a confusion since we call it "Pink Cedar". Spanish Cedar is the wood of choice for instruments here, since Brazilian Mahogany is very rare and is protected by enviromental laws. It's sounds good, is beautifull, lightweight, but's is VERY soft and dents easy.

Brazilian Maple - We call it grumixava. It's REALLY near to extinction, so it's almost impossible to find this wood to sell. Sounds and looks very similar to Hard Maple.

Brazilian Ash - We call garapa/grapia. It is a dense wood, naturally resistent to insect attack. We use it for making pool decks. I can't see nothing similar to Nort-American Ash.

Best Regards

[Lincoln]

Many thanks!

[Lincoln]

Any ideas on how these woods sound?

Maracatiara, Platano, Marfim, Marupa or Guajuvira

[Thiago Vianna]

Originally Posted by Lincoln

Any ideas on how these woods sound?

Maracatiara, Platano, Marfim, Marupa or Guajuvira

Muiracatiara - It's Tigerwood (some people call it Gonçalo Alves too). Do a search and you will find further information.

Marfim - It's Ivorywood. Very dense and hard, looks a lot with maple, but a bit more yellowish.

Platano - It's the same American Sycamore.

Marupa - Very light. It's the brazilian alternative to alder/basswood.

Guajuriva - It's called White Ipe too. Strong and very hard, is used to make fences and construction.

[Larry Davis]

Originally Posted by Thiago Vianna

As a Brazilian, I can tell some things about local woods:

since Brazilian Mahogany is very rare and is protected by enviromental laws.

That's interesting, Thiago. There's much discussion about mahogany and CITES, legal and other mahogany logging. I did not realize that it is also rare within Brazil. Can you elaborate more on it's use and availability in Brazil? I don't mean to start some political chats, just curious about mahogany status within Brazil. What is the mahogany price in Brazil when good quality mahogany is available in a lumber store?

[Thiago Vianna]

Originally Posted by Larry Davis

That's interesting, Thiago. There's much discussion about mahogany and CITES, legal and other mahogany logging. I did not realize that it is also rare within Brazil. Can you elaborate more on it's use and availability in Brazil? I don't mean to start some political chats, just curious about mahogany status within Brazil. What is the mahogany price in Brazil when good quality mahogany is available in a lumber store?

Hi, Larry. Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) now it's very rare in Brazil, due to uncontrolled exploitation, and it's very difficult to find it in lumber stores, since it's protected by several laws. When you finally find it, the price is about 2500~3200 US dollars per cubic meter. It's much more expensive than Spanish Cedar, that costs about 700~900 US dollars per cubic meter.

You cannot cut or sell mahogany in Brazil. If you do it, you go arrested. Really, it's true. We sometimes see some guys going to jail because he was cutting mahogany, brazilian rosewood...

Best regards

[eleonn]

Originally Posted by Thiago Vianna

Hi, Larry. Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) now it's very rare in Brazil, due to uncontrolled exploitation, and it's very difficult to find it in lumber stores, since it's protected by several laws. When you finally find it, the price is about 2500~3200 US dollars per cubic meter. It's much more expensive than Spanish Cedar, that costs about 700~900 US dollars per cubic meter.

You cannot cut or sell mahogany in Brazil. If you do it, you go arrested. Really, it's true. We sometimes see some guys going to jail because he was cutting mahogany, brazilian rosewood...

Best regards

Really?? In Peru you can find mahogany without much problem. I know that nowadays lumbers quality is not close from the quality of 10 or 20 years ago though. There are laws here too and the places where mahogany grows are strictly watched by the INRENA which is the national entity. How much it costs I don't know but I will look for the price

[Thiago Vianna]

Originally Posted by eleonn

Really?? In Peru you can find mahogany without much problem. I know that nowadays lumbers quality is not close from the quality of 10 or 20 years ago though. There are laws here too and the places where mahogany grows are strictly watched by the INRENA which is the national entity. How much it costs I don't know but I will look for the price

Yes. I live in Manaus, a city that is inside Amazon Forest, and it's almost impossible find Mahogany here. But we have excellent woods here at a reasonable price:

- Ipe, Jatoba, Lacewood, Tigerwood, Bloodwood, Yellowheart, Purpleheart, Brazilian Oak and several others species that we use to "replace" maple, alder, ash, mahogany...

Here is a map of where I live:



Although the city is in the midst of a forest, concentrates several industries (we fabricate TV's, DVD's players, motorcycles - Harley-Davidson hold a factory here - and even cars) and is incredibly beautiful.

[eleonn]

We have great woods here too and cheap... its great, isnt?

[Larry Davis]

Originally Posted by Thiago Vianna

Yes. I live in Manaus, a city that IS inside Amazon Forest, and it's almost impossible find Mahogany here. But we have excellent woods here at a reasonable price:

- Ipe, Jatoba, Lacewood, Tigerwood, Bloodwood, Yellowheart, Purpleheart, Brazilian Oak and several others species that we use to "replace" maple, alder, ash, mahogany...

I envy you guys having access to such great woods. Mahogany quality sure has gone down in the pat several years. Are there mahogany plantations being harvested? Is the lacewood grown on plantations?

[Lincoln]

Well....

If I were to replace Maple and Ash what woods in Brazil would I use?

[Thiago Vianna]

Originally Posted by Lincoln

Well....

If I were to replace Maple and Ash what woods in Brazil would I use?

Well, if you care about wood "color", to replace maple your logical choice would be Brazilian Maple, but it's even more difficult to find than mahogany. So, you could use: Pau-Marfim (Ivorywood), Amapá, Goiabão, Imbira, Tauari Branco, Peroba-clara (Peruvian Maple - but it is becoming hard to find here too), Grapia/Garapa (Brazilian Ash) or even Pau-Amarelo (Yellowheart).

To replace ash, we don't have a direct substitute, the closest we have is Tauari Vermelho (Brazilian Oak).

[eleonn]

Lincoln there is a wood which is called here Congona (Brosimum Uleanum). It looks like maple and have pretty close mechanical and phisical characteristics. Congona is 1520 at janka vs 1450 of maple. I tried to found it for my project but most of it that reaches Lima goes for the export market and if you want some you have to buy a LOT of it. The only place I could find that sells it in small amounts wanted a ridicuously price for it. Actually its not much but for the prices you could find here it was simply just too much. I'm sure it can be found too. Maybe you should look for it and see if it can be found.

A funny thing is that a some locals woods are hard to find here and easy as hell to be found in US market!!

[Thiago Vianna]

Originally Posted by eleonn

Lincoln there is a wood which is called here Congona (Brosimum Uleanum). It looks like maple and have pretty close mechanical and phisical characteristics. Congona is 1520 at janka vs 1450 of maple. I tried to found it for my project but most of it that reaches Lima goes for the export market and if you want some you have to buy a LOT of it. The only place I could find that sells it in small amounts wanted a ridicuously price for it. Actually its not much but for the prices you could find here it was simply just too much. I'm sure it can be found too. Maybe you should look for it and see if it can be found.

A funny thing is that a some locals woods are hard to find here and easy as hell to be found in US market!!

Brosimum Uleanum is called Manitê here. It's difficult to find because it only grows in a small portion of Brazil (close to Peru).

Amapá (Brosimum Parinariodes) - one of the wood I have listed before - is a Manitê's cousin. It's much more available. Really it looks like Maple. And you can even find it flamed .

[alexlotta]

Interestin stuff ,Thank You GUYS!!!

The most great thing to see would be a simple "tab "with
"Known woods" and The most similar brazilian wood ones in Tone.
(something like "wengè"=*******, "maple": "Peroba-clara", Aso...)

Wonder how Brazil luthiers deal with ebony(fretless bass Deserve it ) ,i've searched a bit (after i did read that topic)and did'nt find any info :i found some people even here in old topics speaking about brazilian ebony (if exist) not so "appealing" for instruments.
What kind of wood could replace it is a mistery anywhere in the world (for my tastes).

I'm quite interested In that topic as i wanna try to order a bass from some luthier in brazil ,but the woods they provide are a mistery..what are the "middish ones" and so on..

I'll follow that one closely ..

[Lincoln]

Many thanks for all the info, I will definitely be putting it to use.

Any other thoughts?

[eleonn]

It's hard to get a table with the information you ask because not even to pieces of the same woods will give you the same sound but what you can get is a table or chart with mechanical and physical properties of each wood. There is plenty information of that over Internet I did that about a year ago to see what kind of woods I can get in Peru which were close to maple, ash, etc. A good place to look for this information is http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/techmenu.html and websites from timber resellers.

Having in mind that I'm in Peru and not in Brasil... there is a wood here which feels pretty dense. It's black with just a few yellow lines that can be dyed. If you are in Lima and what the most expensive stuff for your floors, you get this. The bad news it comes already cutted from the rain forest in pieces of 30cm x 10cm. I know that this wood is the biggest punishment you can give to a blade\saw. I don't remember the name but I'll try to get it so you can see if it can be found in Brasil. I don´t know about Brasil but imported timber (like ebony) here is close to cero. I know a that there are 2 or 3 builder here (at least those are the known ones) that import little amounts of maple and ash and thats all.

[Kalango]

Originally Posted by Thiago Vianna

Well, if you care about wood "color", to replace maple your logical choice would be Brazilian Maple, but it's even more difficult to find than mahogany. So, you could use: Pau-Marfim (Ivorywood), Amapá, Goiabão, Imbira, Tauari Branco, Peroba-clara (Peruvian Maple - but it is becoming hard to find here too), Grapia/Garapa (Brazilian Ash) or even Pau-Amarelo (Yellowheart).

To replace ash, we don't have a direct substitute, the closest we have is Tauari Vermelho (Brazilian Oak).

I have heard that some luthiers use freijo (Cordia goeldiana) as a substitute for ash. I´ve heard that it´s very close tonewise . It is a little heavier and way darker than ash, though. I never had the chance to compare them.

Thiago Vianna, Manaus é tão bom de mulher quanto ouvi falar? Se for, quero mudar praí...

[Thiago Vianna]

Originally Posted by Kalango

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I have heard that some luthiers use freijo (Cordia goeldiana) as a substitute for ash. I´ve heard that it´s very close tonewise . It is a little heavier and way darker than ash, though. I never had the chance to compare them.

Thiago Vianna, Manaus é tão bom de mulher quanto ouvi falar? Se for, quero mudar praí...

Well, IMO freijo is closer to alder than ash. Anyway, this is a great wood and works well in any instrument that I have played. I have played a Jazz Bass, a Telecaster and a classical guitar with freijo neck.

Kalango, a resposta é: SIM. Hoje mesmo fui em um aniversário em uma pizzaria e saí de lá babando. Aqui em Manaus só volta pra casa de mãos abanando quem quer. A taxa é de mais ou menos 3 a 5 mulheres pra cada homem, dependendo do local onde você for "catar". Abç.