Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

[Prostheta]

+1 on that. Water thin might wick too far in though but gel would certainly sort this. Good call!

[Hopkins]

I don't think you have much to worry about. Ash is a pretty hard wood, and the string tension will be dispersed between the string ferrule and laterally at the saddle.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Prostheta

If the pulling becomes an issue then borrow or buy a piloted counterbore to recess the ferrules? Worst comes to the worst, dropping a washer or two in won't hurt as long as they are not loose. Again, I respect your attention to detail.

Counterboring is an option, but not a preferred one because it's visible from the 'outside', not my initial plan to do too. The washers shouldn't be loose indeed, otherwise they would rattle. Gleuing in wooden shims would therefore be the best option.

Originally Posted by wraub

Perhaps drop some CA in there to harden the wood? Just a random thought, probably way wrong...

wraub

Could be, but it's not a tight fit because the drill size is an approximation. So CA wouldn't bond.

Originally Posted by Prostheta

+1 on that. Water thin might wick too far in though but gel would certainly sort this. Good call!

True, gel would be better, but I guess I need epoxy because of the loose fit mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Hopkins

I don't think you have much to worry about. Ash is a pretty hard wood, and the string tension will be dispersed between the string ferrule and laterally at the saddle.

I thought Swamp Ash was rather soft among the hard woods, but good point about the tension dispersion.. the tension will be less than with a 'straight pull'.

Originally Posted by pilotjones

I think you're looking to try to make a perfect thickness shim for each ferrule, so that the ferrule flange contacts the body simultaneously with the ferrule end clamping the shim. Rather than do that, if you're worried about compression of the ash, I'd consider a few things:
- no one else seems to be worried about this, and it's pretty unlikely that everyone drills their holes to just the right depth. So maybe it's not a problem?
- If you are worried, why not make a test piece to see whether it's a legitimate concern
- rather than do the shim thing, I would put CA on the OD of the barrels and push them in to the right depth. No way string tension is going to simultaneously break the ~2 cm^2 of bond surface in shear, and crush the wood.

I like your view on things Pete . The 'perfect thickness shim for each ferrule' is indeed what I had in mind. Because I feel that if the ferrule rests on the wood with as much surface as possible, the tension will be less concentrated on the edges of the holes. Also, the surface of the bottom of the ferrule is larger than the edges resting on the back of the body (I assume, not sure though).

In response to your remarks:
- I thought a ferrule recess hole was meant to fit exactly around the ferrule, meaning you need an exact depth
- The fact that no one else seems to be worried about this, usually isn't a reason for me not to worry about it
- Although you're probably right it's pretty unlikely that everyone drills their holes to just the right depth...
- Your test piece suggestion is a good one, but does a brief test simulate the long term effects of pressure? Or wouldn't that make a difference?
- Bonding is a good alternative, but not reversible (I know, I'm pigheaded)

I guess I'll give shimming a try first, alternatively make a test piece and / or go for gluing them in. But in the end, after reading all your responses, it might be less of a problem than I thought..

[HaMMerHeD]

I had my 5-string fretles strung up with the ferrules just resting inside the holes. I didn't push them in, because I didn't want to have to fish them back out. The body is ash, like yours. The pulling force of the strings did not pull the ferrules into the holes very much, if at all. When I disassembled the thing for finishing, I was able to get the ferrules out with my fingers..no tools.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by HaMMerHeD

I had my 5-string fretles strung up with the ferrules just resting inside the holes. I didn't push them in, because I didn't want to have to fish them back out. The body is ash, like yours. The pulling force of the strings did not pull the ferrules into the holes very much, if at all. When I disassembled the thing for finishing, I was able to get the ferrules out with my fingers..no tools.

You mean they also floated with their edge resting on the back of the body surface? Good to know though, I just imagined it would have..

[HaMMerHeD]

Here is a crude drawing:



Sorry, I didn't have time to paint it and it's not to scale.

The green thing is the string, the red thing is the ferrule.

I hand-pressed the ferrules in just enough so that they wouldn't fall out while I was pulling the strings through.

Then I tuned it up and tested everything. It was strung up for about a day I think.

When time came to disassemble for finishing, the ferrules had not been pulled in noticeably and were still removable by finger.

Point is, the pressure applied by the strings to the ferrules is not that great, such that it didn't even pull the ferrules the rest of the way in.

Please note, however, that the holes were drilled fairly tight. The barrel diameter is 3/8", so I used a 3/8" forstner. I probably will have to use a mallet to get them the rest of the way in if I ever manage to get time to finish the silly thing.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by HaMMerHeD

Here is a crude drawing:

Sorry, I didn't have time to paint it and it's not to scale.

The green thing is the string, the red thing is the ferrule.

I hand-pressed the ferrules in just enough so that they wouldn't fall out while I was pulling the strings through.

Then I tuned it up and tested everything. It was strung up for about a day I think.

When time came to disassemble for finishing, the ferrules had not been pulled in noticeably and were still removable by finger.

Point is, the pressure applied by the strings to the ferrules is not that great, such that it didn't even pull the ferrules the rest of the way in.

Please note, however, that the holes were drilled fairly tight. The barrel diameter is 3/8", so I used a 3/8" forstner. I probably will have to use a mallet to get them the rest of the way in if I ever manage to get time to finish the silly thing.

Thanks for this very informative post! Never would've thought the strings wouldn't even pull the ferrule all the way in.. Mine would because the holes aren't that tight, but your finding proves the pressure isn't a great as I thought it would be.

[suraj]

Is it possible that your overthinking because you won't be able to go into the workshop for a few days ??

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by suraj

Is it possible that your overthinking because you won't be able to go into the workshop for a few days ??

Yes, that's possible. In fact, overthinking is my middle name..

But seriously, I thought these holes were meant to be exactly the same depth as the ferrule height. I will now end the discussion on this topic and come back with a decent update in a few days

[roberthabraken]

Sorry guys.. but if something bothers me, it bothers me...

But I found a solution to my 'problem'




Looking around in the hobby store I came across these plastic M5 washers. The inside and outside diameter is perfect, as is the thickness. Three holes have room for exactly one washer, one hole exactly holds two washers and for one hole I needed to sand two down a bit for the desired thickness. The advantage of plastic is that it's very easy to sand and it doesn't rattle at all if it would came loose a bit.

I know it's probably superfluous, but it makes me feel better (remember the 100% zen mentioned by Prostheta? )...

[jay tay]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Sorry guys.. but if something bothers me, it bothers me...

But I found a solution to my 'problem'




Looking around in the hobby store I came across these plastic M5 washers. The inside and outside diameter is perfect, as is the thickness. Three holes have room for exactly one washer, one hole exactly holds two washers and for one hole I needed to sand two down a bit for the desired thickness. The advantage of plastic is that it's very easy to sand and it doesn't rattle at all if it would came loose a bit.

I know it's probably superfluous, but it makes me feel better (remember the 100% zen mentioned by Prostheta? )...

Hey dude it's your bass, and your the only one that has to be truly happy with it, If that means going above and beyond what is necessary, to do what is right for you then do it, you don't want to be looking at it and only thinking about "what if I just put some washers in" every time, that would potentially ruin (for you) a beautiful bass. great work throughout, It is the attention to detail that has made this build so interestingly unique, fantastic!

[Ol'Bass'ead]

It seems to me that if you use the plastic washers, it would be the same a using a softer wood. The ferrules on a string through are another stop point of vibration and as such, I think it might effect your sustain. It would be along the same line as using a plastic nut.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by jay tay

Hey dude it's your bass, and your the only one that has to be truly happy with it, If that means going above and beyond what is necessary, to do what is right for you then do it, you don't want to be looking at it and only thinking about "what if I just put some washers in" every time, that would potentially ruin (for you) a beautiful bass. great work throughout, It is the attention to detail that has made this build so interestingly unique, fantastic!

Thank you. You're right about that. Very true . And thank you very much for the compliment. It's fun to share your work in the first place, I like the feedback and discussion that comes out of it. As is the next point:

Originally Posted by Ol'Bass'ead

It seems to me that if you use the plastic washers, it would be the same a using a softer wood. The ferrules on a string through are another stop point of vibration and as such, I think it might effect your sustain. It would be along the same line as using a plastic nut.

At first I thought you've made a joke here. But second thoughts were it might be serious. Now, I don't know. So I will respond to it as if it was a serious remark:

The ferrule's OD is 10.5 mm. I could not find a 10.5 mm wood drill (brad point) bit, only a drill bit for metal of that size, but those are very hard to center and I think the hole would not be clean enough or well enough aligned, so I chose not to go that route. I used an 11 mm brad point drill bit for this, knowing that I might have to use a little bit of electrical tape to get a tight fit (and center the ferrule). It came out that this is hardly necessary, as the 11 mm drill bit created a hole that's somewhere around the 10.7 mark. But the conclusion here is: the ferrules do not sit tight in their holes (no full contact with the wood). That's the first thing you should know.

Secondly, the holes were drilled about 1.2 mm deeper than necessary. Ooops. That means, there's air beneath the ferrules too.

So, we have a situation were the ferrules float in a pocket of air, only resting on the wood with their lips (I do not know how you call the exposed outer ring of the ferrules).

Now, I plan to put some plastic washers underneath the ferrules and maybe some electrical tape around them to get a snug fit. Albeit with softer materials, this enlarges the contact surface greatly.

Actually, I have a hard time believing that this enlarged contact surface from a softer material affects the sustain in a negative way, opposed to the ferrules floating in mid-air. I think air (or - nothing - if you like) is the worst material as it comes to sustain. You need contact.

I do agree, that a hardwood equivalent of the washers would be better, sustain-wise, but those are a little hard to manufacture (although I could try). But, on the other hand, I think the effect is so minimal, I am sure it is not noticeable.

Awaiting your response... and please prove me wrong or laugh at me for actually responding to your statement

[MPU]

What about waxing the ferrule, plugging the thru-hole and ferrule hole and casting some epoxy in the hole followed by waxed ferrule. Should be very, very tight fit for the ferrule.
On the other hand, I'd just put the ferrules on their holes after finishing and not think about the hole depths. The strings lay on the saddles and nothing that's behind the saddles has any effect on sustain or anything soundwise.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by MPU

What about waxing the ferrule, plugging the thru-hole and ferrule hole and casting some epoxy in the hole followed by waxed ferrule. Should be very, very tight fit for the ferrule.
On the other hand, I'd just put the ferrules on their holes after finishing and not think about the hole depths. The strings lay on the saddles and nothing that's behind the saddles has any effect on sustain or anything soundwise.

That's a good idea too! Would be a perfect fit, but it's a bit labor-intensive. I think epoxy and hard plastic do have the same 'sustain'-properties and I too think the effect of sustain past the saddles is minimal, if any.

[pilotjones]

You can tighten up the holes by applying layers of CA to the walls. Using a cotton swab, add a coating, wait for it to harden, and test the fit. Keep going until it fits the way you want it to. You can make it have a press fit if you want.

That's what I did with my tuner bores.


Btw since you bring it up, "lip" is an OK word for that part of the ferrule in English. "Flange" is a better one.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

You can tighten up the holes by applying layers of CA to the walls. Using a cotton swab, add a coating, wait for it to harden, and test the fit. Keep going until it fits the way you want it to. You can make it have a press fit if you want.

That's what I did with my tuner bores.


Btw since you bring it up, "lip" is an OK word for that part of the ferrule in English. "Flange" is a better one.

Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like a good option too.

And thanks for telling me the best word for that part of the ferrule. Always nice to extend your vocabulary.

[Ol'Bass'ead]

No, I was completely serious. But it may be that the effect is minimal. I personally would do the CA layers to press fit thing-or use epoxy to speed the process up a bit. Only other thing i can think of is turn the .5mm off of the ferrule and redrill at 10mm after filling the hole with epoxy.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Ol'Bass'ead

No, I was completely serious. But it may be that the effect is minimal. I personally would do the CA layers to press fit thing-or use epoxy to speed the process up a bit. Only other thing i can think of is turn the .5mm off of the ferrule and redrill at 10mm after filling the hole with epoxy.

Okay, but what about my statement of plastic vs air regarding sustain? Could you explain why plastic, connecting body with ferrules, would give less sustain than the air pocket everybody seems to accept?

No trolling, just curious.

Epoxy could be quick, but feels like casting a plastic washer, and thus a bit useless. I could make wooden washers, that's the best option as I see it.

[MPU]

Epoxy is much harder than swamp ash.