Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

[Konquest]

Water-based dyes are always going to creep under masking tape. You are better off masking off the section TO be dyed and sealing with shellac right up to the line, then taking off the masking tape, re-mask on the un-dyed side, and then dye the top.

NGR (non grain-raising) stains mixed with alcohol (ie. Behlen's solar-lux) evaporate very quickly and may not creep/penetrate under the masking tape line to the same extent as water-based. The caveat here is that those stains are pretty unforgiving compared to water based.

Another thing is that when you mask the transition areas between dyed and un-dyed, use quality tape and burnish the tape into the wood with a brass brush.

[kvnjcbsn93]

For the red you might want to try spraying sand and sealer after sanding off the blac and then using black grainfiller before using the red. Im really happy with my finish i just did on my bass doing that. But i sprayed the red on instead of using the stain.

[Hopkins]

If you were doing a lacquer finish it would be a lot easier IMHO. I don't care for dyes or stains much because the end grain pulls in to much color and its never even.

If it were me, I would do the black dye, sand, then spray it with a red tinted lacquer. followed by about 12 clear coats.

[kvnjcbsn93]

Originally Posted by Hopkins

If you were doing a lacquer finish it would be a lot easier IMHO. I don't care for dyes or stains much because the end grain pulls in to much color and its never even.

If it were me, I would do the black dye, sand, then spray it with a red tinted lacquer. followed by about 12 clear coats.

+1 heres mine that is dyed black with the red lacquer on mahogany

[roberthabraken]

Thanks for useful information! The shellac sides trick seems a complex process, since I don't like finishing anyhow. And to me, spraying isn't easier, because you need a spray boot, have a long drying time and I always get the lacquer dripping on the edges. Staining can be done on the kitchen table, dries quick and is a more forgiving process. But a first time showed it needs some experience too.

No one commented on the actual result yet: do you think the result will be good enough for the bass? What about the colour?

I will do an oil test over the stained test piece to see what it does.

[roberthabraken]

In addition to my previous post: after overthinking it for a while I might think it's doable if I pay enough attention to every separate task (getting a more even base black coat, sanding it back more even and applying enough red colour).

There's only one thing that's bothering me: the aforementioned edge from dyed headstock front to clear sides.. If I go the shellac route: does anybody know how this is called in Dutch and where I can acquire it?

(I suppose an oil finish wouldn't prevent the colour from entering the wood?)

[Prostheta]

Shellac: "shell +‎ lac", from the French laque ("lac") + en ("in") + écailles ("scales, shells").
Also it is E904 food additive.

Here's the Wikipedia article on Shellac in Dutch.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/E904

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Thanks for useful information! The shellac sides trick seems a complex process, since I don't like finishing anyhow. And to me, spraying isn't easier, because you need a spray boot, have a long drying time and I always get the lacquer dripping on the edges. Staining can be done on the kitchen table, dries quick and is a more forgiving process. But a first time showed it needs some experience too.

No one commented on the actual result yet: do you think the result will be good enough for the bass? What about the colour?

I will do an oil test over the stained test piece to see what it does.

The red looks great, I would suggest doing a round over on one of your test pieces and checking how the end grain takes the stain though.

Shellac isn't your only option really, You can get a rattle can of sanding sealer to seal the raw wood on the sides. Then after you get it stained you can simply sand it off before doing your oil finish.

[jmorbita]

Robert, I'm a begginer, so take this with a grain of salt.

I've been doing a small workshop on applying shellac, in a procedure called "french polish", and to me, it seems like a great option since it can be applied by hand and you don't need a booth.
here's a french polish tutorial, I'm sure there are a lot more:
http://woodworking.about.com/od/fini...hPolishing.htm
Still, I finished my first build with nitro since I had my teacher's workshop available.
Now, to me, the thing is any finish needs practice in order to get it right, even applying finishes with a spray gun requires some technique. I suppose once you get it right it's faster to spray than to finish by hand, but as a beginner there's a learning process for any finish.
Shellac can be applied with a "pad", piece of wool or similar wrapped in cotton cloth:




French polish is tricky because it's very easy to strip the previous coat while applying the next one, so it does take some practice.
As far as I know, with shellac you need to first dye the wood, then apply shellac. this is a very amateur result at staining wood:

with nitro, you can actually apply the stained nitro without actually staining the wood. this is a friend's take, he applied a couple of clear nitro coats to seal, then applied stained nitro, then clear nitro once again:

Now, the interesting thing I think, is that you can actually apply nitro with a similar procedure as french polish (using a pad instead of the spraygun) wich I think can be a good in between option. You'll get a thicker coat than if spraying, and maybe need to sand a bit more in between coats. this is nitro applied with a pad:

I suppose you have more control over what you're doing with a pad than a spray gun.

I hope you don't mind me posting so many photos on your thread!!

[roberthabraken]

Thanks jmorbita, for the interesting read. Don't mind it at all! All information that's related to the thread's topic is very welcome

Originally Posted by Hopkins

The red looks great, I would suggest doing a round over on one of your test pieces and checking how the end grain takes the stain though.

Shellac isn't your only option really, You can get a rattle can of sanding sealer to seal the raw wood on the sides. Then after you get it stained you can simply sand it off before doing your oil finish.

I did do a test on the roundover, but didn't like it (yet). It sucked in too much black and it was hard to sand back evenly. I need to do / test / practice that again.. roundovers are indeed not as easy as a flat surface, mainly due to the end grain I guess indeed.

I think sanding sealer is a good tip / alternative. I found a great Dutch resource that sells it and has a great article about it online.

Originally Posted by Prostheta

Shellac: "shell +‎ lac", from the French laque ("lac") + en ("in") + écailles ("scales, shells").
Also it is E904 food additive.

Here's the Wikipedia article on Shellac in Dutch.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/E904

I didn't know that, really.. it sounds so obvious (Schellak) but never heared of it before. Thanks!!

[roberthabraken]

Oh and I just visited a local music store and found out most basses have a more ellipse shaped neck profile opposed to my D-profile. Only MTD approached what I have (and G&L too, mostly regarding thickness, which is correct if you check Pete's graph posted earlier in this thread). The MTD neck also looks like if it's a bit assymetrical, I like that. So right now I feel I've got something playable for sure, but it may need some 'polishing' (figuratively speaking).

[Prostheta]

I'm frankly not surprised about the G&L neck since they are ultimately of the same provenance as Fender, whose vintage necks never quite got a proper reach around.

Although I enjoy both thicker and slender necks on my instruments, the ones I have built always end up in the same region of being a slightly deeper elliptical section than say, an Ibanez SR. Those oh-so-important thickness measurements I dial in when cutting the thickness taper can go out of the window when I get my thumb behind it! I would go as far as saying that trying to dial in something identical to a particular model will leave you less satisfied than listening to your hands instead.

The radii and fretwire used can also affect the apparent feel of a back profile. I'm sure this is why I end up with the profiles I do for my own instruments. I use big wires.

[pilotjones]

On a test piece, you'll want to have roundovers both to side grain and to end grain.

End grain take up can be influenced by the degree of sanding, or so I have read.

I have heard of doing a sealer of thinned shellac Justin the end grain.

[Ol'Bass'ead]

A real easy way to minimize stain creep is to get some clear (doesnt really matter what kind, youre going to sand it off) and with a Q-tip go around the edge and down about 1/4" all the way around. It seals the wood so it wont absorb any stain. I do this when I do faux binding.

[Prostheta]

So you're doing this red eh, Rob? hahaha
I hate finishing. It's the most laborious and loveless part of making an instrument. Kind of like having a teenager.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

On a test piece, you'll want to have roundovers both to side grain and to end grain.

End grain take up can be influenced by the degree of sanding, or so I have read.

I have heard of doing a sealer of thinned shellac Justin the end grain.

I looked up some articles and found this tip as well, to work the end grain with either shellac or sanding sealer, sand back a little and then stain, to make the colour more even between top and sides.

Originally Posted by Ol'Bass'ead

A real easy way to minimize stain creep is to get some clear (doesnt really matter what kind, youre going to sand it off) and with a Q-tip go around the edge and down about 1/4" all the way around. It seals the wood so it wont absorb any stain. I do this when I do faux binding.

If I go for the red, I'll try this on a test piece!

Originally Posted by Prostheta

So you're doing this red eh, Rob? hahaha
I hate finishing. It's the most laborious and loveless part of making an instrument. Kind of like having a teenager.

Haha.. well, actually, I'm in doubt.. really don't know how this is going to end up. I like the red, especially with the chrome and the white pearl. But on the other hand it's a bit 'heavy' and it still masks some of the beauty of the wood. Added to that that it's a daunting task to get an even teint and not mess up the fb and the hs sides.

I made a mockup of the body in Photoshop, based on the test piece I made, comparing it to how I think a clear oil finish would look:



So, I have three decisions to make before continuing:

1. Red (with a black base coat sanded back) or blank?
2. If I go with the red, do I leave the headstock blank or should the face of the headstock be red as well?
3. Do I want a symbol logo (like an 'H') or my name on it (I prefer the last) and should it be an inlay (which I prefer) or a decal? The problem is that the logo I came up with is almost undoable as an inlay, but a decal will not work with the oil finish I planned...

[Prostheta]

Buy shellac, gain experience off scrap. I see you in no hurry to complete this. Might as well take as much from the process as you can and make sure you end up with what is in your head. Anything else is regret.
(edit: or some other form of clear masking like lacquer as mentioned)

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Prostheta

Buy shellac, gain experience off scrap. I see you in no hurry to complete this. Might as well take as much from the process as you can and make sure you end up with what is in your head. Anything else is regret.
(edit: or some other form of clear masking like lacquer as mentioned)

The point is I am not sure I like the red enough to take the plunge (maybe I should try the red on a simple limba body and leave this gorgeous maple / wenge / swamp ash body blank).

And I am a bit in a hurry.. I want to be finished before humidity hits 20% again and I have a new project waiting (a 63" span RC P-47 kit from Top Flite), that needs to be finished mid 2013..

[Splods]

The bass itself does look quite nice with the natural wood. Up to you in the end though.

[Big B.]

The red color was actually what struck me about the concept drawings. Especially with the pickguard for contrast. I think its well worth it and I dont even usually like tinted finishes.

Like learning any new technique, you'll be glad you did in the long run. Fine finishing requires patience that most people dont have. You clearly do though and I think with a little experimentation you"ll have a smokin axe on your hands.