Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

[Ol'Bass'ead]

After reading through all the posts since the last time I was here, my take is this; The red is a tad bright. If you could darken it just a tad with maybe some blue it would 'classy' it up and look phenomenal with that figure. It will also darken up a bit with whatever finish you apply so dont go too far. As far as the logo/signature, you may be able to do both. If youre running a truss rod cover, put your name in that and do an inlay logo at the top of the headstock. I would also match the color on the headstock.

Oh, I would just stain the top and let the ash contrast with it. Using the same technique as the headstock with the clear and the Q-tip.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by lbridenstine

I think it looks really good natural or maybe a little darker natural color even. Just my thoughts.

I listed your vote ... this is one of my thoughts too

Originally Posted by Sahe_Bassist

ive been following your thread for a long time now, great looking bass and your work is immaculate.

while following, whenever the topic of the finish came up, i always thought this would look better without the red, or any color for that matter. the wood has such a beautiful grain and it would be a shame to cover it up...BUT when i saw this picture you changed my mind. if you can get the red translucent like that, where it still heavily shows the grain that would be the best looking bass ever.

also, about the headstock. i say finish it the same as the body. maybe just do the front, so you can see the sides are natural. that might look good.

i have loved reading your thread so far, it has really motivated me to start working on my guitars and has given me a goal of one day building my own. this thread has been a great and educational read so far. KEEP IT UP!

(your into model planes too?! man...)

Hi! Thanks for chiming in .. and thanks for the compliment . Your reaction is something I hear more often. People say they like natural more, but upon seeing the rendering, they say it really pops and tend to like that one better. By now, I am completely convinced, that if I am going to stain the bass, I will also stain the top of the headstock. Opinions about that are unanimous.

And about the model planes... yeah, that used to be an hobby of me, picked it up early this year and got my flight certificate this summer. I own three foam ARF planes by now, but want to build something serious (scale, and from balsa as we did back then). But time is limited, and I _need_ to finish this baby first .

Originally Posted by MPU

With gloss lacquer I'd go red but with oil definately natural. Oil makes the colour a bit warmer and that figure would look great.

Good one, but with oil you can get quite a glossy finish as well and I don't like spraying (not enough experience and surely not enough motivation). If my shop gets bigger in the future (now it's under 9 m2) I may setup a little spray booth and start practising.

Originally Posted by jay tay

I was a big fan for the Red, but side to side, now I'm wobbling a little. That natural with oil will look superb, and I also think that the red would look best with a high gloss finish...

Essentially you can't lose both look stunning.

I just got a mental picture of this bass in translucent black and got chills.

The fact that I can't lose 'cause both look stunning kinda feels good, to know, and to hear. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Ol'Bass'ead

After reading through all the posts since the last time I was here, my take is this; The red is a tad bright. If you could darken it just a tad with maybe some blue it would 'classy' it up and look phenomenal with that figure. It will also darken up a bit with whatever finish you apply so dont go too far. As far as the logo/signature, you may be able to do both. If youre running a truss rod cover, put your name in that and do an inlay logo at the top of the headstock. I would also match the color on the headstock.

Oh, I would just stain the top and let the ash contrast with it. Using the same technique as the headstock with the clear and the Q-tip.

Thanks for the well thought out feedback. I do like the bright red, but I think you are right about a tad darker would be more classy. I think that the black stain underneath darkens the red a little though, I'll see how my next test piece turns out.

Only staining the top is, actually, a very cool idea. That would leave the entire back of the bass nicely blond and natural, while the front is hot rod-ish and funky. Seems daunting to me, but I'll need to try the Q-tip tip and see how difficult it is (or isn't), to produce a professional looking result.

I tried both of your suggestions in this new rendering. May be a little too dark, but it's a nice alternative. Is this what you meant?



I like your logo / signature suggestion too. I didn't plan on using a truss rod cover, seems unnecessary to me and I like the visible layers and shape of the access cavity, but it's a good option to consider. I will try some things and see if it works out. Thanks!

[Ol'Bass'ead]

Yup! Thats it exactly! With a shiny top coat that will be stunning!

[whodom]

Originally Posted by Ol'Bass'ead

Yup! Thats it exactly! With a shiny top coat that will be stunning!

+1

[Darkstrike]

Love the look of the red top with the natural sides. Very swish.

[wraub]

Still not a fan of red, still prefer natural...
Still not a fan of pickguards. really...

But that just kills. Straight-up solid kills.
Do it.

wraub

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by wraub

Still not a fan of red, still prefer natural...
Still not a fan of pickguards. really...

But that just kills. Straight-up solid kills.
Do it.

wraub

That's the kind of encouragement I need

[RedMoses]

Red top, natural back/sides is my vote, either way you go this Bass is looking fantastic!

[JohnnyLiBass]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Honestly, this is just about the best looking bass I've ever seen. It looks like a Ferrari in wood form. It's sexy and it looks fast without even moving. I don't know that you could get any closer to perfection than that (imho).

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by RedMoses

Red top, natural back/sides is my vote, either way you go this Bass is looking fantastic!

Originally Posted by JohnnyLiBass

Honestly, this is just about the best looking bass I've ever seen. It looks like a Ferrari in wood form. It's sexy and it looks fast without even moving. I don't know that you could get any closer to perfection than that (imho).

Thanks, thank you very much for that really great compliment! Mind that the colour is Photoshopped in there, but other than that it's the real bass. I'm really satisified myself so far and I indeed planned to build my personal dream bass, which seems to succeed so far (but I have to wait for sound and playability to be sure of course ).

If I can pull it off, I will certainly go for the natural sides / dyed top! I owe Ol'Bass'ead one for that great idea

[HaMMerHeD]

The red begs for a high-gloss clear-coat. Preferably poly, so it doesn't go all yellow.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by HaMMerHeD

The red begs for a high-gloss clear-coat. Preferably poly, so it doesn't go all yellow.

Didn't know it was an oil-specific feature to turn yellow (although my previous bass did).

I made a test piece using PU Varnish. Do you know that? Does that qualify?

[Ol'Bass'ead]

PU=Poly Urethane

[roberthabraken]

Time for another staining test! I learned a lot from the first one and needed to test my new ideas. So I sanded back my first test piece completely, removing all red and black stain. Besides the fact that this was easier than making a new body sandwich test piece, I also wanted to see how deep the stain went into the wood.

First I sealed the headstock and body test piece sides with PU Varnish. I also bought higher quality tape (thinner, more flexible to shape around the body curves, sticks better and less paper-like but the surface feels more like plastic, repelling water). I really rubbed the tape tightly against the wood and used Q-tips to seal the wood I don't want to stain:





Then, after the varnish dried, I removed the tape and placed new tape over the varnish. I wet the wood with water so it accepts the stain better and stained the tops black. Really rubbed it in, also along the sides. I immediately saw a difference, the stain didn't creep under the tape:



When this dried for about half an hour, I sanded it back. Then I made some red stain and stained the tops with bright red. I did not remove the black completely, to get a darker tint of red. I also left some more along the edges of the body, to get a very small burst effect along the sides:



I waited as long as I could (about 5 minutes) and removed the tape. I must say it's a major improvement opposed to the first test. Didn't expect it to be this nice after a second attempt! The only drawback of this colour scheme is that it pretty much hides the wenge accent line:



And the headstock test piece, exactly how I planned it - red top, natural maple side, wenge veneer and maple again. Cool!



And here you can see the difference between the varnished side and the unprepared side:



This photo shows the flames and gradient best (although the colour isn't as bright as this, but (when dry) more towards a deeper maroon):



And one more thing I couldn't resist, a shot with the pickguard material on the body test piece. This is going to rock:



There's only one thing that needs to be sorted out before I can move to the real thing:

• The varnish is quite hard to sand back and even if you do so completely, it has filled the ash, making it impossible for the oil to penetrate into the wood. Thus I need to go for the varnish for the whole bass, dropping the oil, or I need to redo a test piece with the oil I want to use and see if it also seals the sides as nice as the varnish does. That way I can leave the oil on and just match the same number of coats on the front before I oil the entire bass.
• If I am going to use the varnish for the whole bass, because this technique doesn't work with the oil (don't no yet, but if), then my question is: would PU Varnish be a suitable finish for a guitar? It seems quite thick and durable. Maybe it also has more shine to it than oil. Anybody?

Thanks for all the support and encouragement, the great ideas and helping me to achieve my goals!

[Hopkins]

Do you have a piece of scrap cut off of the side of the body blank that has an end grain and side grain that you could round over? The test piece you have there didn't seem to get that hard line at the end grain like I've seen many times before. A larger test piece would give you a better idea of how the entire bass will react when dyed.

It looks like sealing the wood first was just the ticket as far as that goes. That PU varnish I am assuming is just another name for a wipe on poly finish, and would work fine as the final finish. Oil dries in the wood, so it may make the wood take in less dye, but I doubt it would seal it off enough for the dye not to penetrate.

I agree with the idea that this bass needs to be red, and it needs a high gloss finish. I'm thinking a wipe on poly might just do the trick. Though a spray finish would build faster and most likely require less sanding.

BTW I really dig that red

[Marial]

Beautiful!

[R Baer]

Really looking forward to seeing this finally completed. I'm a total gear nut and honestly, this is one of the sexiest bass designs I've ever seen. If this was a production instrument, I would probably be in!

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Ol'Bass'ead

PU=Poly Urethane

Yes, I know, but do you think it is suitable (I said alcohol based in my PM, but I foud it's thinner based I guess)? Edit: see below...

Originally Posted by Hopkins

Do you have a piece of scrap cut off of the side of the body blank that has an end grain and side grain that you could round over? The test piece you have there didn't seem to get that hard line at the end grain like I've seen many times before. A larger test piece would give you a better idea of how the entire bass will react when dyed.

It looks like sealing the wood first was just the ticket as far as that goes. That PU varnish I am assuming is just another name for a wipe on poly finish, and would work fine as the final finish. Oil dries in the wood, so it may make the wood take in less dye, but I doubt it would seal it off enough for the dye not to penetrate.

I agree with the idea that this bass needs to be red, and it needs a high gloss finish. I'm thinking a wipe on poly might just do the trick. Though a spray finish would build faster and most likely require less sanding.

BTW I really dig that red

Thanks!

I think the cut off you see here actually is an end grain. It sucks up the black very aggressively and I needed to carefully sand a bit more over the edges to get an even spread of black, but I also left some of the extra black in there to get some build up towards the edges. I am not sure this is what you mean, but I thought I had it covered. I know a larger test piece would be better, but I do not have any large left overs that I can use and I do not have that much dye either.

Thanks for the advice on the varnish! I actually didn't know (and that's why Ol'Bass'ead seems to mention PU stands for poly urethane) that PU Varnish is a synonym for wipe-on-poly. Your presumption about the oil not sealing enough is a thought I share. I may try it just to be sure, but right now I feel I'd better use the poly.

I think a spray finish would require less work, but needs longer to cure and intimidates me more than the poly. If I build up enough poly and sand enough, I think I can indeed get it shiny as well.


There's one more thing that bothers me a little: the water in the red stain mixture tends to pick up higher concentrations of black stain from the deeper areas, creating little black spots here and there. Do you think that'll disappear if I wait longer between the black and red stain?

Originally Posted by Marial

Beautiful!

Originally Posted by R Baer

Really looking forward to seeing this finally completed. I'm a total gear nut and honestly, this is one of the sexiest bass designs I've ever seen. If this was a production instrument, I would probably be in!

Thanks

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

I think the cut off you see here actually is an end grain. It sucks up the black very aggressively and I needed to carefully sand a bit more over the edges to get an even spread of black, but I also left some of the extra black in there to get some build up towards the edges. I am not sure this is what you mean, but I thought I had it covered. I know a larger test piece would be better, but I do not have any large left overs that I can use and I do not have that much dye either.

Thanks for the advice on the varnish! I actually didn't know (and that's why Ol'Bass'ead seems to mention PU stands for poly urethane) that PU Varnish is a synonym for wipe-on-poly. Your presumption about the oil not sealing enough is a thought I share. I may try it just to be sure, but right now I feel I'd better use the poly.

I think a spray finish would require less work, but needs longer to cure and intimidates me more than the poly. If I build up enough poly and sand enough, I think I can indeed get it shiny as well.


There's one more thing that bothers me a little: the water in the red stain mixture tends to pick up higher concentrations of black stain from the deeper areas, creating little black spots here and there. Do you think that'll disappear if I wait longer between the black and red stain?





Thanks

What I was getting at with a bigger piece was to see how not only the end grain, but the side grain (for a lack of a better word) would absorb the dye on the round over. Actually with the black absorbing more on the end grain in the pictures looks deliberate, almost like a very small burst.

I am no expert when it comes to dyes and stains, so I cant give you a 100% positive answer. But I would assume that waiting at least 24 hours between the dye colors would be your best bet.

Wipe on poly should be easy enough to pull off. I just prefer nitro, because spraying lays down more level and nitro leaves no witness lines. Lately though I have been spraying an automotive urethane clear that goes on thicker than nitro, and requires much less drying time, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without a good gun and compressor.

I think your best bet would be the poly, with patience, wet sanding and buffing you could get as good as a result as a sprayed finish. Its just going to be more time consuming, which I know by now that you will have no problem with

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Hopkins

What I was getting at with a bigger piece was to see how not only the end grain, but the side grain (for a lack of a better word) would absorb the dye on the round over. Actually with the black absorbing more on the end grain in the pictures looks deliberate, almost like a very small burst.

I am no expert when it comes to dyes and stains, so I cant give you a 100% positive answer. But I would assume that waiting at least 24 hours between the dye colors would be your best bet.

Wipe on poly should be easy enough to pull off. I just prefer nitro, because spraying lays down more level and nitro leaves no witness lines. Lately though I have been spraying an automotive urethane clear that goes on thicker than nitro, and requires much less drying time, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without a good gun and compressor.

I think your best bet would be the poly, with patience, wet sanding and buffing you could get as good as a result as a sprayed finish. Its just going to be more time consuming, which I know by now that you will have no problem with

I see, I think I should try a side grain piece to see if I can get the same effect of the very small burst.

Thanks for the tips! I do not have a lot of time, but patience does fill that gap