Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by GlowRay

That is gorgeous!

Originally Posted by FiskFisk33

oh my god, as someone staded earlier, you are building the bass equivalent of a ferrari.

Thanks guys! If the clear coat comes out well it'll be gorgeous and close to my ideal bass... now let's hope it sounds and plays good as well ....

Originally Posted by Hopkins

Well, I guess reading before commenting might be a good idea in the future

Np... I appreciate your advice and I'm learning a lot from you guys, especially in the finishing process.

[Lonnybass]

Hey buddy-

It's really looking fabulous. The white pick guard combined with that flame red pattern is truly smashing - you should be proud of the results. I'm happy that it is turning out so well!

Saw your note regarding the lifting in a few spots along the binding. If you're back to bare wood in those areas or if it looks like a fairly deep valley, I'd suggest doing a few spot repairs - just re-mask the binding for a couple of inches along the problem area and then rub a few applications of varnish onto those areas of the neck over the course of the day with a gloved fingertip.

If it's just the top surface that has pulled away on those spots but you still have underlying coats on the neck, I'd leave as-is for now. When you buff out the neck, those edges will be blurred into the fingerboard anyways so you won't even see or feel them.

If you are able to post a couple really good close-up shots of those areas it might be helpful in evaluating further. But I wouldn't sweat it either way - you're into fine adjustment stage now and it's well on the way to being perfect.

Lonnybass

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

Hey buddy-

It's really looking fabulous. The white pick guard combined with that flame red pattern is truly smashing - you should be proud of the results. I'm happy that it is turning out so well!

Saw your note regarding the lifting in a few spots along the binding. If you're back to bare wood in those areas or if it looks like a fairly deep valley, I'd suggest doing a few spot repairs - just re-mask the binding for a couple of inches along the problem area and then rub a few applications of varnish onto those areas of the neck over the course of the day with a gloved fingertip.

If it's just the top surface that has pulled away on those spots but you still have underlying coats on the neck, I'd leave as-is for now. When you buff out the neck, those edges will be blurred into the fingerboard anyways so you won't even see or feel them.

If you are able to post a couple really good close-up shots of those areas it might be helpful in evaluating further. But I wouldn't sweat it either way - you're into fine adjustment stage now and it's well on the way to being perfect.

Lonnybass

Thank you Lonny!! Looks great isn't it? Great to hear you like it! I'm happy I took the plunge of staining the top. I can't wait until it's finished and all hardware is on. I'm also very curious how the blond natural back will look opposed to the funky front .

I will try to photograph some close-ups soon. The spots look like little bubbles (except they do not differ in height) where some air got under them, where the layer of varnish lost adhesion with the wood (presumably between the first two satin coats and the following five gloss coats, despite them being from the same brand and type). The coat is not damaged or intermittent, just lifted of the wood locally.

So, I do have underlying coats on the neck, but no gloss and five layers deep. Also, it's not like a valley at all, since the coat continues, but just lost adhesion. I think adding layers won't change anything to this situation. They will also not buff out. If they stay like this, hardly anyone will notice them, so that's not something I'm worried about. The only worry would be that this problem continues to develop over time.

I would also have the option of trying to run thin CA under them to re-attach the coat at those spots, but this just feels wrong and I'll probably mess things up when doing that...

[roberthabraken]

Sanded the neck with good quality 3M wet 600 gr, after having the paper get wet overnight in a bowl with a drop of soap. Sanding went like a breeze, almost easier than dry sanding, or so it feels. Got the neck really smooth already (about 95%) and with the right light it looks completely satin / dull. With the light at a more exposing angle, it's completely full of witness lines, as you guys predicted. I hope they disappear with the next coat.

On one spot I sanded through the varnish completely (on the headstock), taking a tiny bit of red off.. I did a spot repair with stain and I think it will become invisible after coating again. I did learn how it works though, how it feels and what not to do.

I will first apply a coat on the neck to see how I did before sanding the body. I do have the time and that's the way I can get the best result.

I also coated the back of the control cavity cover twice to prevent it from warping, which would've been more likely when only finished on one side.

[roberthabraken]

... poured myself a Scotch. Certainly learning a lot with the finishing of this build, and from what I know now I'd better went with oil or nitro I guess. After sanding and doing the spot fix, I decided I want to see how the headstock face came out when varnished again so I applied one more coat. Halfway dry, it looks as though the witness lines didn't disappear completely. It may need to cure completely and fancy another coat before they do, or I'm not lucky and they won't... if that's the case I am tempted to just varnish the bass body 'till it looks even enough by itself and not dive in the sanding and polishing adventure. The witness lines in the varnish, or the layer separation that's typical for varnishing, wasn't something I knew before I started. That's why I now feel nitro would've been better.

The sides on the neck around the binding do seem better after sanding already. And the neck at least feels smoothish. The red still looks great too.

I'm still following all the steps nicely, with patience and attention, so I do feel like having control over the process (as the wet sanding in itself went great too), but I really do have my doubts about the chosen finishing materials and application / technique (both due to the adhesion and witness lines). The result still isn't up to the same standard as the woodwork itself, which is a shame. The benefit is the experience I'm acquiring, so it's a lesson, but that isn't all what I was aiming for

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

... poured myself a Scotch. Certainly learning a lot with the finishing of this build, and from what I know now I'd better went with oil or nitro I guess. After sanding and doing the spot fix, I decided I want to see how the headstock face came out when varnished again so I applied one more coat. Halfway dry, it looks as though the witness lines didn't disappear completely. It may need to cure completely and fancy another coat before they do, or I'm not lucky and they won't... if that's the case I am tempted to just varnish the bass body 'till it looks even enough by itself and not dive in the sanding and polishing adventure. The witness lines in the varnish, or the layer separation that's typical for varnishing, wasn't something I knew before I started. That's why I now feel nitro would've been better.

The sides on the neck around the binding do seem better after sanding already. And the neck at least feels smoothish. The red still looks great too.

I'm still following all the steps nicely, with patience and attention, so I do feel like having control over the process (as the wet sanding in itself went great too), but I really do have my doubts about the chosen finishing materials and application / technique (both due to the adhesion and witness lines). The result still isn't up to the same standard as the woodwork itself, which is a shame. The benefit is the experience I'm acquiring, so it's a lesson, but that isn't all what I was aiming for

Rob-

Don't let a little thing like witness lines during your first go-round sway you from using varnish. You'd be surprised how they can appear using other finish methods as well. In the end, you're going to have a much durable finish than oil and unless you have a spray booth, nitro is going to create a potentially nasty hazard environment in your shop (and house!).

I'm confident you'll be able to eliminate the lines with re-coats of finish, to build your surface back to level in the low spots, and then the rubout to bring everything to a uniform sheen.

I do think you're going to be disappointed if you aim for a final coat without the polishing or buffing phase. It's really difficult to get a three-dimensional surface to lay down that evenly.

However, given the understandable hesitation around the possibility of further witness lines and the fact that you're still getting comfortable with the techniques, here's my suggested total fail-safe for a really high quality result without the risk of burn-through.

Assuming you've got 10 coats or so on the body, let the bass cure for another week or two and really harden up. Then, take a pad of 0000 steel wool and work a nice glob of high quality paste furniture wax into it (I use Minwax). Working a section at a time, rub out the finish in a small circular pattern until the whole body is covered. The beauty of the waxed steel wool is that it will eliminate most, if not all, of your surface imperfections with adequate time because it will work its way into all the little hills and valleys (what's called orange peel).

Before long you'll have a mirror-smooth waxed surface all over the bass...with almost zero chance of eating through and creating a witness line.

Let the wax harden up for 15-20 minutes or so, and then buff off with a clean rag or better, an automotive buffer (mine is a Black & Decker I bought for about $29 US). You're left with a very warm and rich looking satin to semi-gloss finish. In my opinion, this is where the real beauty of the oil/varnish blends shine compared to some of the other finishes out there - it doesn't look like the wood is coated in plastic.

Let me know if you have questions. Perfection is well within reach my friend!

Lonnybass

[Prostheta]

Hi Rob. I'm stressing here over the finishing process too! Haven't commented as I think to much information overcomplicates things plus Lonny is giving you fine advice. I've been using a lot of wax recently and it's a great look and feel. I would advocate many thin layers rather than one thick layer though, all buffed out in between. Thicker layers are a nightmare to rub out and tend to gum up, although this friction does help generate a little heat whilst buffing which is a good thing. The neck will feel better with a wax application too.

[roberthabraken]

Thanks guys, I find your input really helpful! Thank you Lonny for the exstensive posts with instructions to get me through the finishing stage, I appreciate that!

The first coat after sanding (on the top of the headstock only) didn't hide the witness lines completely, but only made them less clear. Furthermore, the finish on that part of the neck now varies from dull to high gloss per cm2... it doesn't look good now. But I hope another layer tonight will make things better.

What I will try is to get the neck looking good again by applying some new layers.

The body has 7 layers on there. It starts to level out throughout the consecutive layers applied. That means I will probably buy a new can and apply three more layers. If I'm with ten, I start to wax with steel wool as Lonny described.

I hope it all works out, but I'm not feeling to well about it. At least I got some great advice here! I'll keep you posted. And once it starts going somewhere again, I'll add in some pics too .

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Thanks guys, I find your input really helpful! Thank you Lonny for the exstensive posts with instructions to get me through the finishing stage, I appreciate that!

The first coat after sanding (on the top of the headstock only) didn't hide the witness lines completely, but only made them less clear. Furthermore, the finish on that part of the neck now varies from dull to high gloss per cm2... it doesn't look good now. But I hope another layer tonight will make things better.

What I will try is to get the neck looking good again by applying some new layers.

The body has 7 layers on there. It starts to level out throughout the consecutive layers applied. That means I will probably buy a new can and apply three more layers. If I'm with ten, I start to wax with steel wool as Lonny described.

I hope it all works out, but I'm not feeling to well about it. At least I got some great advice here! I'll keep you posted. And once it starts going somewhere again, I'll add in some pics too .

Rob-

Don't sweat it, it will all work out. Confidence! The reason the area on the headstock still looks dull is simple - when you sanded back to bare wood in that spot, you're now re-filling the grain, and until it starts to build a top layer over the wood, it won't look quite right. However, once the surface film forms with a couple well-applied layers, the resulting sheen will make those dull witness lines eventually go bye-bye.

With the new can of varnish you're going to buy, pour about a 1/4 of it into another container and add some mineral spirits and a couple drops of japan drier, and work of out that vs. the product in the can. The mineral spirits will help the varnish flow more smoothly and less like syrup, which will be much more forgiving when it comes to brushstrokes. And it will dry to surface touch faster, so you can get to 2 or 3 coats a day.

Remember, with many thin coats of well-applied varnish, sufficient cure time and a careful wool n' wax buffing under good lighting conditions, you're almost guaranteed to end up with a very warm and foolproof somewhere-between-satin-and-semigloss finish without the risk of burn-through.

Lonnybass

PS One last precautionary measure - be mindful that any back-to-wood areas need to be free of sanding contaminants (silica, dust, residues) so that you do not have adhesion problems when you recoat. Compressed air and a little naptha will help.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

Rob-

Don't sweat it, it will all work out. Confidence! The reason the area on the headstock still looks dull is simple - when you sanded back to bare wood in that spot, you're now re-filling the grain, and until it starts to build a top layer over the wood, it won't look quite right. However, once the surface film forms with a couple well-applied layers, the resulting sheen will make those dull witness lines eventually go bye-bye.

With the new can of varnish you're going to buy, pour about a 1/4 of it into another container and add some mineral spirits and a couple drops of japan drier, and work of out that vs. the product in the can. The mineral spirits will help the varnish flow more smoothly and less like syrup, which will be much more forgiving when it comes to brushstrokes. And it will dry to surface touch faster, so you can get to 2 or 3 coats a day.

Remember, with many thin coats of well-applied varnish, sufficient cure time and a careful wool n' wax buffing under good lighting conditions, you're almost guaranteed to end up with a very warm and foolproof somewhere-between-satin-and-semigloss finish without the risk of burn-through.

Lonnybass

PS One last precautionary measure - be mindful that any back-to-wood areas need to be free of sanding contaminants (silica, dust, residues) so that you do not have adhesion problems when you recoat. Compressed air and a little naptha will help.

Thank you Lonny for the encouraging words. I varnished the neck again yesterday evening and it seems (although right after application) that they indeed get less visible / apparent or they may have disappeared completely. Let's see how it looks tonight. The coat on the back of the neck came out nice thin and even, the one on the headstock face was a bit thick and thus wavey. But if this process works out with the particular varnish I have, I can redo it a few times to work to a coat that's good enough to proceed with waxing.

The tip of thinning with mineral spirits (turpentine as suggested on the can in my case) is a very good one. I will try this for my final layers, actually very curious how that'll work. The can only says to thin the first coat to seal the wood, but apply the rest of the layers undiluted. I will try to source japan drier over here, not sure if I can find it.

I did indeed clean the surface with a dry cloth first and then extensively with naptha to remove any dust or residues. Thanks for the precaution.

I so hope I can achieve the warm and foolproof semi-gloss finish you're talking about!

[suraj]

Hey rob, I'm very excited to see the leveling and rub out stage on your build. I'm planning to use varnish myself for my build and i'm using your thread as a guide But the more troubles I see you going through, I think to myself, why not just spray lacquer

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by suraj

Hey rob, I'm very excited to see the leveling and rub out stage on your build. I'm planning to use varnish myself for my build and i'm using your thread as a guide But the more troubles I see you going through, I think to myself, why not just spray lacquer

Depends... maybe the lack of experience makes me do small things wrong, maybe I'm just too worried, maybe wiping varnish would be better than brushed (I guess). Can't really say varnish is bad based on my findings lately, that wouldn't be fair . I need to finish it to know if I can recommend it to a beginner. The oil thing (maybe even TRU oil) is far more suited for a small shop without any experience or room to spray, and less stressful too . Just keep watching this thread and you'll find out how I did. You may as well do perfectly fine on yourself, even if I was to screw it up completely.. lol. Good luck with your great build!

[Lonnybass]

I'm nearly complete with woodwork on my current build, I'll post a oil/varnish how-to on the finish process for you all to check out.

Lonnybass

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

I'm nearly complete with woodwork on my current build, I'll post a oil/varnish how-to on the finish process for you all to check out.

Lonnybass

Great!

[roberthabraken]

Regained some confidence: after two layers the witness lines are completely gone, even in bright daylight. The back of the neck now looks rather nice, thin and smooth. But the headstock face looks way too waved because the thick varnish.. Didn't spread out well. Don't see that as a problem though.. It's applied thick and with some more layers I can get it flat again, also knowing that wet sanding an re-applying always is an option.

Need to get the body and neck well covered in a few more coats now. Also coating a test piece to test the wool waxing on later on.

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Regained some confidence: after two layers the witness lines are completely gone, even in bright daylight. The back of the neck now looks rather nice, thin and smooth. But the headstock face looks way too waved because the thick varnish.. Didn't spread out well. Don't see that as a problem though.. It's applied thick and with some more layers I can get it flat again, also knowing that wet sanding an re-applying always is an option.

Need to get the body and neck well covered in a few more coats now. Also coating a test piece to test the wool waxing on later on.

awesome, thats good to hear

[roberthabraken]

Time for another small newsflash: as you may know it took quite a thorough wet sanding job to get the neck level the first time. I then laid on two extra coats. The second one (didn't report that yet ) was thinned with mineral spirits and did indeed spread out much better. I was, however, not completely satisfied with the last two coats: the headstock face was all bumpy and the back of the neck got some small dust particles and some tiny hairs in it. So I decided to sand back a bit and continue adding coats untill I'm happy.

What surprised me, is that I now only needed a very light wet sand (still 600 grit) to get it smooth again. So I think with some more thinned down layers, applied very lightly, I can get it smooth. The edges of the varnish alongside the binding are looking better. The sanding burnished them into the binding a bit and the succeeding layers made for a better transition.

The body is still untouched after its seventh layer. Looks good and only needs a few more, but I'm currently building experience and some skills on the neck .

Going to buy a new can this afternoon I think and apply a top layer on the complete bass. I also do have the option of buying a spray can version of the same varnish (both type and brand), exactly the same stuff, but sprayed instead of brushed. Also seems an attractive option, because it may get my top layers nice and smooth, but not sure if I should switch though. Maybe the compound is just a little bit different and I don't want to risk the adhesion problems it could introduce.

[roberthabraken]

Wow wow wow..... I bought a new can, and expected it to be a bit better. Well, it isn't. It's sooooo much better I can hardly believe what happend.. Compared to this, the previous can contains a thick syrupy paste. It's unbelievable what a difference it makes. It is so much easier to apply and it spreads out wonderfully.

I just applied the eight coat and it worked out great. I learned something over here, so I poured some varnish in a can and closed the can immediately to minimize the open time of the can to the absolute minimum. When I got something left after usage, I just poor it back. It seems that the open time of about seven hours completely changed the characteristics of the varnish.

The other thing I've learned, is that I changed the stick to hold the body. Last time, the varnish glued the stick to the body and the transition from the body around the heel to the stick had to be cut loose in order to remove the stick. You can image that it's hard to leave the finish undamaged at that edge. So now I made a small recess, so that the stick doesn't touch the body at the edge from the neck pocket to the sides of the body. Works far better this way.

Oh.. and I also learned that either the varnish or the turpentine eats itself through plastic.. don't laugh.. but I used a plastic cup to thin the previous coat on the neck. That was yesterday. And now the contents of that can is sitting on my workbench (luckily the old one) with the remainders of the plastic cup on top of it ...

I must say that, despite the fact that I'm not there yet, I am learning so much and I'm really growing into the finishing process. That's absolutely a satisfying experience in itself.

[suraj]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Depends... maybe the lack of experience makes me do small things wrong, maybe I'm just too worried, maybe wiping varnish would be better than brushed (I guess). Can't really say varnish is bad based on my findings lately, that wouldn't be fair . I need to finish it to know if I can recommend it to a beginner. The oil thing (maybe even TRU oil) is far more suited for a small shop without any experience or room to spray, and less stressful too . Just keep watching this thread and you'll find out how I did. You may as well do perfectly fine on yourself, even if I was to screw it up completely.. lol. Good luck with your great build!

lol yeah i'm pretty much waiting to see how yours ends up, and the way its going, i'm pretty sure after leveling and polishing it will look stunning..!! The back of the body already looks fantastic..

Edit : Its noteworthy to not keep your varnish cans open for too long. *takes down the noteworthy note*

[roberthabraken]

I would too Suraj ... thanks, I hope it will

Found this tutorial:

http://www.woodworking.com/ww/Articl...nish_7436.aspx

Planned to go with Lonny's advice with wax and 0000 steel wool for a semi-gloss finish. Tried to find a tutorial with it to not dive in it completely ignorant. This tutorial however says the wax belongs to the satin finish, but for a semi-gloss you need to use automotive rubbing or polishing compound. What do you guys think? Good resource?