Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

[roberthabraken]

Don't know, much thicker if compared to a waterslide decal I guess. Maybe inbetween 90g and 120g paper?

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Thanks Lonny! If it wasn't for your help, I wouldn't be

Tenth coat is on, finished just a minute ago. Tried to get it on as thin and smooth as possible. Looking at the curing while applying, I reckon I should do another coat to hide the witness lines completely (on the body that is). Neck looks fine as is, and if it ain't necessary, I won't touch it anymore when it's dry. So probably one more coat on the body and we're done. Can't wait to get there!

Rob-

Well done, all appears to be coming along together. My guess is you are plenty safe on the neck with the coats you have on there.

Now that we're already into the end of the work week, if I were in your shoes - and assuming you have Saturday off like I do - I'd take advantage of the free day to apply another handful of thin coats to the body of the bass with your newly improved technique.

Assuming you have the day off, you could easily get three more thin coats on there starting bright and early in the afternoon, then mid day, then late at night.

Ultimately, this would only add an extra 48 hours to the two weeks of curing time, but would pay off significantly in terms of quickly and easily building up meaningful protective finish layers - over the witness lines - without losing any significant time getting the bass done with the curing.

When you weigh the potential timing setback of a witness line AFTER having already waited two weeks, the extra day on the front end to hit the bass with a morning coat, midday coat and evening coat - especially if the weekend affords you the flexibility - is well worth doing.

Just my two cents.

Lonnybass

[roberthabraken]

Thanks Lonny, good tip. Wouldn't like witness lines when rubbing out after weeks of waiting... I have Saturday off, but most is taken up by family (young kids, you see), groceries and such. Also, didn't source the drier yet, so have to wait 12 to 24 hours inbetween coats to get a good spread (doesn't spread well if the previous coat is still sticky). I can however apply a coat tonight, tomorrow night and Saturday night and still be done before Sunday .

Conclusion: add layers until I'm happy and it looks good enough to stop, without risking building up so much it gets uneven again (or having another coat with dust in it).

[Prostheta]

After the last layer has gone on and you are into the eternity of CuringTime™ you should go get designing the next bass for this year Rob. I think that the original compound scale idea is hammering on the doors at the back of your mind, is it not? It should be.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Prostheta

After the last layer has gone on and you are into the eternity of CuringTime™ you should go get designing the next bass for this year Rob. I think that the original compound scale idea is hammering on the doors at the back of your mind, is it not? It should be.

Yes it does.. I actually tried to apply that idea on my upcoming guitar build, but the shape does look wonderful with straight frets, not so much with the fanned ones... and I like the shape I came up with alot!

[roberthabraken]

So, eleventh and twelfth coat are on. Last one currently curing. Did came out reasonably well, but not as perfectly smooth and level as the tenth coat (right after sanding). Seems multiple coats start to develop some waviness when the varnish is building up.

Very tempted to sand back again and continue with the varnish, as that may gradually get me to a smoother surface. But I would need to do at least four more coats after that, and I'm not sure it would produce a better result than I have now. Will try to post some detailed pictures showing the result when everything's dry tomorrow.

I sanded back the cavity cover though, as it contained a blemish I couldn't work around. This proved that even I get the surface almost completely flat, I cannot get around producing witness lines. The coats of varnish are very, very thin, and the least difference in thickness will produce them. So I'm hesitating to do a final sanding before rubbing the finish out. I wonder if it wouldn't just be enough to rub it out without sanding, as the surface is pretty smooth already?

I will at least do one more coat on the body, that should put an end to the visible witness lines that are still left.

[roberthabraken]

Figured my cell phone pictures didn't show the varnishing result very well and wanted to share the result with you guys as realistic as possible, so I took out our HD cam and shot a short video in daylight. Pardon my filming skills, which I do not have, but it at least shows what the finish looks like:

http://youtu.be/Llk_BFXxWrs

What do you think? Would this be a good starting point for rubbing out with wax and steel wool? Any advice, as usual, is greatly appreciated.

[JamesGoodall]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

http://youtu.be/Llk_BFXxWrs

The video is private

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by JamesGoodall

The video is private

Sorry, meant to make it hidden (not listed), not private of course. Fixed!

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by roberthabraken

Sorry, meant to make it hidden (not listed), not private of course. Fixed!

Rob, great timing, great camerawork, I'm a little disappointed in the weak dialogue, incoherent plot and lack of 3-d special effects work, but by and large, great stuff.

From the looks of your progress, I'd say go ahead and hang your brush out to dry! Let the body sit untouched in a dry place for 14 days, starting today. Then, wax on!!!

Lonnybass

[Hopkins]

It looks so great glossy. But I think it will look good steel wooled and waxed also.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

Rob, great timing, great camerawork, I'm a little disappointed in the weak dialogue, incoherent plot and lack of 3-d special effects work, but by and large, great stuff.

From the looks of your progress, I'd say go ahead and hang your brush out to dry! Let the body sit untouched in a dry place for 14 days, starting today. Then, wax on!!!

Lonnybass

Hahaha LOL.. Yeah, it's not a very good product video is it?

It's a good thing you say it's good enough to start waiting for the wax! I myself thought the result wasn't level enough, especially on the top. The red top is a lot less forgiving by the way, than the natural wood on the back and sides. The red really shows all imperfections, while the wood blends it in in some way.

I have two more questions for you: can I start with the steel wool and wax right away (after drying of course) or should I sand first (which'll produce witness lines and I don't think you can wax 'm out)? And second question: if sanding introduces witness lines, wouldn't steel wool do too?

Originally Posted by Hopkins

It looks so great glossy. But I think it will look good steel wooled and waxed also.

Thanks Hopkins, it does indeed. If I'd managed to get it this glossy in the end I would have tried, but I'm afraid the witness lines of the varnish makes it hard because the first step would be sanding. And in a way I think the steel wooled and waxed result would look more sophisticated on this bass.



And in reply to Rob Groenweg (Mister know not) who is apparently still following my thread, but since he has been blocked on TalkBass for offending me, among others, now decided to start ranting in the comments on my YouTube video (5 in total to be precise):

No, my neck is not twisted or bent in any way anymore. It got bent a little in the process, but only by 1.5 mm over the entire distance, but I found my way to work that out and it is stable right now for over half a year. You see Rob, in the process of building an instrument, especially when it is only your second one, you make mistakes. But to notice, and being able to fix it, is what makes you learn the most.

You are right that the reflections show a wavey surface (or as you say, looks like your exgirlfriends but, or looks like my girlfriend sat on it, or looks like some old lady's buthole). The waviness is, however, exaggerated by the light, because the differences in thickness are about 0.02 mm or less. I sanded it completely flat inbetween and then only added three more layers. If I now would wet sand that varnish with 600 g I would be able to get it flat in a few minutes.

However, I know this result isn't very good, but that's the point of sharing and getting feedback on it. I didn't have any experience with this. I hope, when I'm ready with this bass, I have enough experience to do it better next time, and I already have learned a thing or two, by the way.

Then, you state that it's weird that I am proud of the result. Well, that's your assumption, because I never said I was. It's purely a video showing facts, with facts in the video description as well. The reason I made the video isn't because I am proud of it, but because I wanted some feedback and needed to show you the results so you could give me some.

The comments you gave me were however, again, not very constructive and I decided to remove them, to maintain a positive flow.

Lastly, I want to let you know I am not disliking your threads, builds, or whatever it is you have shared on TalkBass. I also am not angry or mad at you and I find it surprising you are still taking your time to post offending comments wherever you can related to my build. The sole reason for me removing your comments from both my thread and my video, is that you are scolding, writing offending text and such. So let's stop with this conflict right here and right now. I am honestly offering you my appologies for (apparently) offending you in the first place (what made you start doing this I guess), I never meant to do that.

I hope you will find my reply helpful in search for your answers.

All the best,

Rob

[Prostheta]

Witness lines are the physical delineations between paint layers much the same as grain lines in wood if you like.

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Prostheta

Witness lines are the physical delineations between paint layers much the same as grain lines in wood if you like.

That's something I'm aware of. Care to elaborate on your philosophical statement?

[Lonnybass]

Rob-

Really looks great, don't let any armchair detractor try and tell you otherwise. You're literally a couple short weeks away from having a handmade, grade A+ smashing instrument in your possession that you can some day pass along to your kids.

Let's see, in answer to your question about sanding first vs. steel wool and waxing and witness lines - be aware that it is certainly 100% possible to create witness lines using steel wool, or any finishing abrasive for that matter.

However, steel wool can be much more forgiving because it removes surface layers at a slower rate than sanding, so it's less likely to eat through a low spot or worse, back to bare wood without a LOT of elbow grease in one area.

NOTE that you aren't guaranteed to create witness lines simply from sanding...only when you sand unevenly through the layers.

Judging from the video, I doubt you'll need to sand very much, if at all. On basses that I use the wool and wax method, I'll occassionally find a rough spot or blemish that requires a little spot treatment of sanding first (around pickup cavities, a drip I didn't notice, etc) but that's about it. Sometimes you'll run into an imperfection that steel wool just isn't abrasive enough to smooth out on its own, therefore the need to spot sand. But generally, because it's relatively soft and malleable, it's good at smoothing out the little peaks and valleys into a finger-smooth surface. Think of it as gentle compression.

Lonnybass
Lonnybass

[Prostheta]

No worries Rob :-) I misunderstood your previous post as I read it that sanding would produce witness lines....I was on lunch reading and typing on the droid! Obviously it was meant as sanding *reveals* witness lines. My mistake.

My signature is a quotation by Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard. I am not particularly enamoured by his works however I think there is an unintended irony in how this quotation works in relation to modern communication and interactions on the Internet. False empowerment of speech through the relative anonymity and hands-offishness of the Internet leads to some pretty empty, tawdry opinionaters. By all means speak your mind but do think about what you say instead of merely babbling whatever nonsense takes hold first. One's opinions and beliefs require reasonable justification and thought in the public sphere rather than "well, it's my opinion and that's what I believe".

[Prostheta]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

armchair detractor

It makes my day every time somebody says things like this!

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

Rob-

Really looks great, don't let any armchair detractor try and tell you otherwise. You're literally a couple short weeks away from having a handmade, grade A+ smashing instrument in your possession that you can some day pass along to your kids.

Let's see, in answer to your question about sanding first vs. steel wool and waxing and witness lines - be aware that it is certainly 100% possible to create witness lines using steel wool, or any finishing abrasive for that matter.

However, steel wool can be much more forgiving because it removes surface layers at a slower rate than sanding, so it's less likely to eat through a low spot or worse, back to bare wood without a LOT of elbow grease in one area.

NOTE that you aren't guaranteed to create witness lines simply from sanding...only when you sand unevenly through the layers.

Judging from the video, I doubt you'll need to sand very much, if at all. On basses that I use the wool and wax method, I'll occassionally find a rough spot or blemish that requires a little spot treatment of sanding first (around pickup cavities, a drip I didn't notice, etc) but that's about it. Sometimes you'll run into an imperfection that steel wool just isn't abrasive enough to smooth out on its own, therefore the need to spot sand. But generally, because it's relatively soft and malleable, it's good at smoothing out the little peaks and valleys into a finger-smooth surface. Think of it as gentle compression.

Lonnybass
Lonnybass

Thanks Lonny! I trust you if you say it's okay as it is. Especially since the video doesn't conceal anything.

I think I will, based on your advice, add one more layer (you said three this weekend, I only got to two) to really make sure there's enough play when rubbing the finish out. I also have a test piece I coated with roughly the same amount of layers, sanded inbetween too, on which I can test the rubbing first. It's small, but I think it will do.

Furthermore, if I am not satisfied. I could always sand it back after a few days from now, which will create less witness lines than last time, and also less visible, because it cured for a longer period of time, and then add some more layers. I somewhere feel that that would improve the quality of the finish. But if the next coats comes out great, I won't.

Originally Posted by Prostheta

No worries Rob :-) I misunderstood your previous post as I read it that sanding would produce witness lines....I was on lunch reading and typing on the droid! Obviously it was meant as sanding *reveals* witness lines. My mistake.

My signature is a quotation by Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard. I am not particularly enamoured by his works however I think there is an unintended irony in how this quotation works in relation to modern communication and interactions on the Internet. False empowerment of speech through the relative anonymity and hands-offishness of the Internet leads to some pretty empty, tawdry opinionaters. By all means speak your mind but do think about what you say instead of merely babbling whatever nonsense takes hold first. One's opinions and beliefs require reasonable justification and thought in the public sphere rather than "well, it's my opinion and that's what I believe".

Although 'reveals' seems a much better word than 'produces', revealing would suggest they are already there and frankly, they are created by sanding through different layers at different places, so maybe 'produces' is applicable much more. If the surface is wavey, but the layer count on each spot is equal, there are no edges of islands of varnish coats, so they are not there. But anyway, I now know what you mean.

[suraj]

Just a thought rob, I have no experience as you may know, but theoretically shouldn't your last few coats of varnish be thick, so as to leave enough room for levelling without revealing witness lines? I understand that thinned coats of varnish may have levelled out better due to the low viscosity, but wouldn't that thin a coat reveal witness lines even with minor sanding or abrading?

[roberthabraken]

Originally Posted by suraj

Just a thought rob, I have no experience as you may know, but theoretically shouldn't your last few coats of varnish be thick, so as to leave enough room for levelling without revealing witness lines? I understand that thinned coats of varnish may have levelled out better due to the low viscosity, but wouldn't that thin a coat reveal witness lines even with minor sanding or abrading?

You're completely right. I did however not thin the varnish. And applying them not too thick prevents dripping. I'll take your advice into consideration for my last coat(s).