Building neck made easy, what do you think?

[bassman74]

HI guys,

i may have a new style of neck reinforcement. it will make the neck totally straight, it will also stop neck from warping or moving from weather variation. Stifness is calculated to still let the neck vibrate but control the instability of wood.
No truss rod!!!
It's half the weight of a truss rod too!!!

All you need is routing a chanel and glue the new system...

Probably epoxy will be suggested....

the only downside: i think is the only way to adjust the action is to work on string height at the bridge and nut.....

I played a no relief, straight neck to days ago and i like it but what do you luthier think about this idea?

thanks

Francois

[pilotjones]

What exactly are you talking about here? Just replacing the truss rod w/ a hollow CF rod maybe?

I think most people would want to maintain the ability to adjust the relief.

Stifness is calculated to still let the neck vibrate but control the instability of wood.

Since a neck will always vibrate, no matter how stiff, what exactly have you calculated here?

[erikbojerik]

Don't confuse stiffness with stability....one of the major reasons you need an adjustable truss rod is because the neck can move over time. It can be stiff as heck but still move over time. Unless you're going all CF like a Moses neck, or unless you want to get into the habit of re-levelling your frets, I doubt you can overcome this.

[Son of Magni]

I don't see how it's any easier than a normal neck with a trussrod. Necks aren't that hard to begin with and dropping a trussrod in the slot never seems like one of the harder steps

[Rodent]

even the "company" that makes carbon bolt-on necks learned that users require a trussrod to adjust the neck relief to their specific taste

all the best,

R

[bassman74]

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

All i can say is that my system is made of carbon fiber. A friend of mine, which is an engineer is actually calculating the strenght needed to keep the neck from curving under string tension. I really don't want to overbuild my carbon part.

Soem says that the carbon fiber tone comes from it's stiffness that'sw why i want my system just to conter act weather changes and string tension....

As soon as i will get this under patent i will show picture of the prototype and drawings....

Francois

[()smoke()]

Originally Posted by bassman74

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

All i can say is that my system is made of carbon fiber. A friend of mine, which is an engineer is actually calculating the strenght needed to keep the neck from curving under string tension. I really don't want to overbuild my carbon part.

Soem says that the carbon fiber tone comes from it's stiffness that'sw why i want my system just to conter act weather changes and string tension....

As soon as i will get this under patent i will show picture of the prototype and drawings....

Francois

would one be limited to string gauge/mfg in order to keep the same degree of relief or flatness in the neck with a system such as this?

also, if the carbon fiber is designed to statically balance the forces from string tension, how does it balance the additional forces acting on the neck when the wood of the neck and/or fingerboard gains or loses moisture due to variations in environmental humidity?

thanks for any clarification, as your idea interests me

edit: for clarity, i suppose i'm just asking if and to what degree the rod is 'overbuilt'...but therein may lie the secret

[dcr]

Originally Posted by bassman74

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

All i can say is that my system is made of carbon fiber. A friend of mine, which is an engineer is actually calculating the strenght needed to keep the neck from curving under string tension. I really don't want to overbuild my carbon part.

Soem says that the carbon fiber tone comes from it's stiffness that'sw why i want my system just to conter act weather changes and string tension....

As soon as i will get this under patent i will show picture of the prototype and drawings....

Francois

Sounds interesting.

However, I sold my Modulus M 92-5 (thanks TomB) because I couldn't adjust the relief on the neck. The only way I'd ever consider buying another Modulus is if it had a trussrod.

That said, I still like the principle of your idea.




dcr

[Rodent]

Originally Posted by bassman74

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Francois - this is exactly what I was referring to ... users (customers) required the addition of a trussrod

all the best,

R

[bassman74]

That's why prototype exists....

We are trying to determine how much more stifness we need to add to the system to counteract wood movement....

The problem is how much overbuilt it needs to be???

i will have 2 new prototypes build. 1 with stronger carbon fiber and one with extra layer + stiffer carbon fiber and compare.

I bought some warwick adjust-o-nut to help adjust the string height..... a little big for my taste but working great....

Francois

[bassman74]

i tought that it would be nice to have a neck that you never need to adjust....

I understand your point Rodent but i'm a little stubborn, LOL

i'm gonna play with the prototype for a while and see....

thank you all guys your comments are really appreciated....

If you still have other comments, go ahead....

Francois

[Rodent]

Francois - it's important to remember that no matter how structurally sound a product might be, if your potential customers have significantly strong opinion on a product it needs to be given consideration no matter what the prototype proves to be feasible

in the case of Modulus, they proved beyond any sliver of a doubt that an all composite neck didn't structurally require a trussrod - but their customers told them otherwise with their $$$

while it's great to establish a new concept in the market, you also need to consider that you're working double duty in also working to establish yourself as a new bass builder on the scene. putting all your stuff into a controversial idea that customers continue to say they 'require' in a product can lead to disaster even if the idea proves to be sound from an engineering standpoint. I'd highly recommend doing some market research in the Basses forum and see if the bass community is ready for a neck that is not relief adjustable (i.e. no trussrod) .... you might be surprised by what those who would be your potential customers have to say

do continue to work on your new concept and prove it out ... but also work to establish yourself with a solid product that is not steeped in controversy

just my 2 Indian Rupees

all the best,

R

[bassman74]

Good point Rodent, asking the people on the market is exactly what i'm doing here.... I haven't won this round, LMAO!!!

I'll continue my work and see where it goes....

thank you very much for your comments

Francois

[Bassic83]

One thing about that system that I'm thinking of is that you have addressed the string tension, but not effects of humidity. Down here in South Texas, it sometimes gets so humid that the locals have started growing gills to breathe! So if the wood is taking up moisture, it will naturally want to curve one way or another. I find myself doing seasonal adjustments on both my basses and my guitarists' guit-fiddles. Your method is basically counteracting a known, nearly constant variable. What is doesn't take into account, that I can see, is the rather unknown variable of the wood's thirst. Just something I was wanting to throw out there for you. It's a good idea, but it may be a regional market you are calculating for.

[T2W]

Originally Posted by bassman74

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

and in what way exactly would installing a cf rod be any easier than a truss rod? unless youre building an entire neck out of cf... I understand you dont want to say too much, if its something you believe could work out. (I aint saying too much about a onboard tube preamp, yes, onboard) No offense, but I can count many tasks in bass building that are harder to do than installing a truss rod. Fretting, dressing, crowning, side dots, nut, pickup building,winding and inlay if any, all seem more difficult to do than a simple rout down the middle of a neck blank.

[bassman74]

good replies guys,

it is not a simple Carbon fiber rod, it is a more complexe system that will be glued. this system will prevent sting tension movement but also twisting and warping movement from weather changes. Here in montreal, it can but 32 celsius in the summer to -22 in the winter plus a lot of humidity....

What i'm looking for it a system in which i can cnc machine your back neck contour + install the carbon fiber device + radius and slot your fingerboard, all you need is to glue it and a press to install the frets.

I wanna build a bass or guitar neck for dummies system....

For a luthier installing a truss rod is nothing but not for a newbie... What if your truss rod snap or if you strip the threads or the adjusting nut. This system can't break, there's no part in movement, it doesn't rust.....

what if you buy your neck blnak and the system is already install, the only thing you have to do is shaping the neck and glueing the FB?

Francois

[Rodent]

in my experience and optinion ... shaping the neck and gluing a fretboard so it is properly located and without a visible glue line is significantly more difficult than routing for and installing a dual action trussrod.

more important than the mechanics of building the neck - since your end customers will not be other bass builders, but instead bass players right? - is to know if there is a large enough segment of the bass playing public that will accept a neck built without a trussrod (and therefore without a way to adjust releif to a player's personal preferences) so that you can have your prototype proven out by real world players who beat on it five or more nights each week for weeks on end. if you can get it approved as significantly better with real players then you have the chance of turning this into something that rocks the industry instead of it being the Edsel or Delorean of bass models

outside of this being a complete carbon fiber neck, the only other way I can see assuring that a neck won't twist is to follow something along the lines of that utilized in a Modulus Genesis neck ... and that is definitely no simple "route a slot and epoxy in some carbon" kind of design



please do take my posting here as thoughts to energize your continued honing in on your new concept and not a dis on your wanting to do this. I have a group of bass playing friends who beat to death all of my concepts to flush away all of the 'hot compost' so I can grasp the good parts of something and move it forward in the right direction. the difference for me is that they aren't posting here in a public forum like this, and we all see each other face-to-face (eliminating miscommunications that can happen via a text only conversation like this one)


wishing you all the success on this,

R

[callmeMrThumbs]

I think the point we're trying to make is that there are not likely to be any "newbie" luthiers who will only build one bass/guitar. They'll build several and learn from their past experiences and mistakes. And because installing the trussrod is one of the less taxing portions of building a bass, a new bass builder would have more issues with other aspects of luthiery, whether it's radiusing, fret dressing, carving the neck/volute, or installing pickups and electronics. Besides, laziness doesn't need to be glorified in our society any more than it already is.

If you make a patent for your new idea, I would suggest to call it an "alternative" to a truss rod - although there has been no other device that's allowed the same adjustability as a truss rod. In addition, I don't understand how your "complex carbon fiber rod" with no moving parts could possibly be any different than a normal carbon fiber insert. I'd love to be proved wrong on this - as soon as you get your patent, of course. Cheers.

-Josh

[pilotjones]

BassLab also installs truss rods now, per customer request, even though their CF monocoque necks fully support string tension without movement, and are not reactive to environmental conditions.

[bassman74]

Ok, i heard your point....

A neck needs a truss rod, that's what you all wantd to hear !!!

LMAO

thanks for your time guys.

Francois