Does paint make difference in tone?

[uOpt]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

Actually, it is correct. The magnet in the pickups create an electromagnetic field that transfers the motion of the strings into electrical energy, which is read at a frequency and translated into sound through the amplification. The body of the guitar continues to vibrate, being connected to the strings, thus creating further motion, or resonance.

In addition to that, the pickup is also moving. If you had a still string and moved the pickup you'd also get a sound. So the vibrations that are forced upon the pickup directly translate into sound change.

[HaMMerHeD]

going to need some waders pretty soon

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by uOpt

In addition to that, the pickup is also moving. If you had a still string and moved the pickup you'd also get a sound. So the vibrations that are forced upon the pickup directly translate into sound change.

If you are referring to the pickup vibrating because of string resonance you are wrong. The pickup is not hard mounted to the body, its is either resting on a piece of foam, or suspended from a pick guard or mounting rings.

If it was hard mounted to the bass the movement caused by vibration would be so miniscule that it would cause no audible difference in sound. Even if this were true, how would a poly or nitro finish have any effect on body resonance?.

[ctmullins]

Originally Posted by Epidrake

I'm a believer.
I took a dead sounding guitar, stripped the finish completely off and the sound was completely different.
It wasn't in my head, my wife heard the guitar and asked me why it sounded so much better. She had no preconceived ideas and couldn't care less.

Bolt-on? If so, did you reassemble the guitar with exactly the same torque on the neck bolts?

[cyclopsbookworm]

Originally Posted by Hopkins

Even if this were true, how would a poly or nitro finish have any effect on body resonance?.

The only way I could see in a finish making a difference to resonance would be if it were significant enough that it alters the movement of the wood. Kind of like if you hit a steel bat with no handle against the concrete, it hurts like hell, but if you coat part of it or add a handle, some of the vibration is dampened and it doesn't hurt so much. The only problem with that theory is that bridges and tuners, etc are mounted to the wood itself, not surface mounted on top of the finish, so the resonance should theoretically bypass the finish.

My guess is the finish would have to be pretty thick to do that.

*To clarify my earlier statement, I was trying to say that I had thought that anything that is within the magnetic field had the potential of altering the way the components reacted with one another, and even that would be hard to measure by ear.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't active pickups nullify the idea entirely? I'd heard they can be installed in just about anything and sound roughly the same. I don't use them so I'm just asking.

[BawanaRik]

True or not I find that the best tone tends to be from BA instruments. I think the lack of paint is the way to go. Bare it.

Now don't do this to your 65 Jazz, find one that's already been Bare Backed.

[cyclopsbookworm]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

True or not I find that the best tone tends to be from BA instruments. I think the lack of paint is the way to go. Bare it.

Now don't do this to your 65 Jazz, find one that's already been Bare Backed.

+1, tho I do have an 80's guitar with an obscenely thick white coating on it that sounds pretty sweet. I also like satin finishes, though they're a b to keep clean.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

Actually, it is correct. The magnet in the pickups create an electromagnetic field that transfers the motion of the strings into electrical energy, which is read at a frequency and translated into sound through the amplification.

Wrong. The permanent magnet sets up a magnetic field. The string, being ferromagnetic, in close proximity, and vibrating, warps the field in a periodic manner. This creates a time-varying flux through the gaussian surface described by the coil. This produces a voltage in the coil proportional to the rate of change of magnetic flux.

And as far as your previous statement about magnetic waves bouncing off the body of the guitar, that is complete fantasy.



Waders on.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

I do have an 80's guitar with an obscenely thick white coating on it that sounds pretty sweet.

Which effectively negates any pro-nitro / anti-poly tone argument you may make. You can't say "all apples are red" if you're holding a granny smith in your hand.

[Beej]

Cyclopsbookworm, just an FYI. This is not the basses subforum and those that play here tend to be accustomed to working through problems with a little more substantive thought and energy. Pilotjones is an engineer, and I would pit a bag of money any day on his knowledge of how this stuff works from that perspective than any unknown peanut gallery member that wades into the fray. With respect of course...

[cyclopsbookworm]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

Wrong. The permanent magnet sets up a magnetic field. The string, being ferromagnetic, in close proximity, and vibrating, warps the field in a periodic manner. This creates a time-varying flux through the gaussian surface described by the coil. This produces a voltage in the coil proportional to the rate of change of magnetic flux.

And as far as your previous statement about magnetic waves bouncing off the body of the guitar, that is complete fantasy.



Waders on.

#1...exactly what I said. The magnet creates the field, the vibration of the string alters it. I was suggesting that something within this field, like a finish, might change the way the field is altered. Of course that would be over a tiny portion of the finish of the guitar. I even said in later I wasn't explaining myself well.

#2 I'll repeat for a third time, even if the above were possible it would have a minimal effect, if any, on the tone. I can repeat it for a fourth time if you like. Sheesh guy, lay off the energy drinks.

#3 actually, I'm gonna go play my bass. This thread has gotten smelly.

Cheers!

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

#1...exactly what I said. The magnet creates the field, the vibration of the string alters it. I was suggesting that something within this field, like a finish, might change the way the field is altered. Of course that would be over a tiny portion of the finish of the guitar. I even said in later I wasn't explaining myself well.

#2 I'll repeat for a third time, even if the above were possible it would have a minimal effect, if any, on the tone. I can repeat it for a fourth time if you like. Sheesh guy, lay off the energy drinks.

#3 actually, I'm gonna go play my bass. This thread has gotten smelly.

Cheers!

Fair enough, I apologize for missing your "negligible effect" statements.

One thing though, nothing in a finish could affect the magnetic field (and therefor the pickup) at all, unless you have iron- or nickel-based metal flake paint.


And Beej, I mostly appear smart by keeping my mouth shut when I don't know what I'm talking about...a simple strategy that's often neglected. You da man though with your psycho-stuff. By the way I'm partway through Kahneman "Fast and Slow" right now, great book.

[Rockin Mike]

If, and I mean if, wood, or paint, or bridge material, or any other non-electric component has an influence on tone it's because of the part of the vibration that is removed from the string and goes elsewhere in the instrument. When you pluck it, you can feel slight vibration in the neck and body. That energy came from the string so it didn't affect the magnetic field.
Or, the vibration of the body causes the pickup and therefore the magnetic field to vibrate under the string.

Those effects may be so small they're negligible, or maybe not. All I'm saying is there is a reasonable basis to think there might be some effect.

Two basses of the same design made of the same wood, electronics and strings can still sound different because no two pieces of wood are alike, and no human player can strike the strings exactly the same way twice. The only scientific way to measure the effect of non-electronic components is to have a number of basses of each type, played by a machine, and listened to by a large number of musicians and non-musicians in a double-blind study with controls, then to have the same experiment repeated by another researcher and seeing the same results.

I would love to see that done, but you know, I just don't have the time or money on a Saturday afternoon.

[Beej]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

And Beej, I mostly appear smart by keeping my mouth shut when I don't know what I'm talking about...a simple strategy that's often neglected. You da man though with your psycho-stuff. By the way I'm partway through Kahneman "Fast and Slow" right now, great book.

That's a sound strategy, I often wish I could shut up a little more often. The curse of introversion is to be self-critical of one's own extraverted behaviour. Wasn't it Twain who wrote something like "better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." ?

I actually haven't read Fast and Slow but of course have heard of it. He's a smart dude and I think his Nobel Prize is a bit of evidence of that direction.

I wish I could type faster...

[cyclopsbookworm]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

Fair enough, I apologize for missing your "negligible effect" statements.

One thing though, nothing in a finish could affect the magnetic field (and therefor the pickup) at all, unless you have iron- or nickel-based metal flake paint.

Right on. My apologies as well. Didn't mean to go all Brutus on you. I'll stick to mechanical engineering and leave the sound engineering to you then.

Your second paragraph was actually what I was wondering about, whether variances in the texture of the finish could disrupt the field in any way, regardless of material, so you answered my question.

I do have a follow up question though. What would cause the tone to improve when you oil an old, dry fretboard? The sound seems to tighten up to me after a good neck clean and polish. This seems to be up the same alley as the finish question. Does it have to do with direct contact with the string when a string is fretted?

[Krinkle5]

I just like basses with natural finishes like Warwick.

[michael_atw]

The effect is slim to none on solid body instruments. Any effects would be barely or impossible to perceive by the vast majority of musicians.

My ears suck. I can barely hear the difference between a gong and a person pissing in a toilet. IMO, I find some people who think they can hear absurdly intricate nuances to be pretty arrogant.

[Rockin Mike]

A bass made of solid iron would affect the magnetic field but it would be heavy.

If you thought I was an idiot, this should remove all doubt.

[Diaos]

If we're taking an electric I don't even think the wood makes a difference. People say it resonates differently but the pickups are picking up the strings not the wood and the wood isn't floating is space it's against the player's gut. It's like saying the handle of a bell changes the tone.

[MPU]

Sure the finish has a huge impact on sound. If you don't clear coat the bass, it will have muddy sound and not a clear transparent sound.
I haven't yet heard any difference that I could say for sure is coming from the finish. Maybe that day will come, maybe not.