Does paint make difference in tone?

[Smilodon]

It's a shame that I didn't think about recording my last bass before I finished it. I had it more or less completely assembled to test out everything before I applied the finish.

I can't really comment on the difference in sound, though, because the I didn't set the bass up properly the first time.

[AuntieBeeb]

Originally Posted by low2groove

I also use and automotive clear coat on my custom instruments, it's way better than laquer could ever be for all the reasons you mentioned

And yes... I could tell the difference between the two. Just picking it up I would feel the difference and the challenge would be over before a note was even struck!

And yes! I'm sure I could also hear the difference as I'm sure many others also could.

Interesting! Hope you don't mind me picking your brains further, but I've just French-polished a solidbody bass. Cosmetically, of course, the elapsed hours of shellac application make the slab of mahogany look absolutely wonderful, but I wondered you had any ideas or opinions on how it might affect the sound - would I have done better to slap a coat of automotive clear on it?

[Dave Higham]

Originally Posted by AuntieBeeb

would I have done better to slap a coat of automotive clear on it?

I'm wondering who's tongue is further into his cheek; yours or low2groove's.

But wait, perhaps neither of you... I wasn't really supposed to take the OP's question seriously, was I?

Oh dear - someone will start talking about Stradivari's magic varnish next...

[Rockin Mike]

Painting the strings will affect the tone.

[AuntieBeeb]

Originally Posted by Dave Higham

I'm wondering who's tongue is further into his cheek; yours or low2groove's.

But wait, perhaps neither of you... I wasn't really supposed to take the OP's question seriously, was I?

Oh dear - someone will start talking about Stradivari's magic varnish next...

Meh. I'm kind of serious but sceptical at the same time. I never thought it would make a significant difference compared with all the other factors, but I'm open to the idea that it might play some tiny part in a comparison between two identical guitars. But then, I still think choice-of-wood can make a significant difference to the tone a solidbody, and I expect a fair few people would laugh at me for believing that!

[cyclopsbookworm]

Hmmm. It seems that based on this discussion, all instruments are the same, regardless of how they're made, what they're made of as long as they have a decent set of pickups. That means i can just run down to the local pawn and pick up any old hunk of junk, slap some new pups in it, and it would play like a custom, right? Haha. I kid of course.

All I know is that my ears can tell the difference between a well-maintained instrument and one that's been left in the garage of the beach house rotting for 10 years. I'm sure that has more to do with a twisting neck and rusting electronics than anything, but to me instrument maintenance makes a difference. Just like there's a difference between a $99 walmart ax and one that someone spent a considerable amount of time and effort to get right.

[cyclopsbookworm]

^of course I also believe that each instrument I play has it's own character and personality. And I also select my instruments playing them acoustically, not plugged in. I also sing to my vegetable garden and play reggae music for them (they don't like death metal). Haha.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

Hmmm. It seems that based on this discussion, all instruments are the same, regardless of how they're made, what they're made of as long as they have a decent set of pickups. That means i can just run down to the local pawn and pick up any old hunk of junk, slap some new pups in it, and it would play like a custom, right? Haha. I kid of course.

I would find how you drew the conversation ridiculous, but then I thought about the fact that it's pretty easy to find out that guitars are largely consistent, regardless of bodily construction. I.e that wood, finish, etc. means next to nothing or nothing for a solid-body. Examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=augwxdUHhPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_GuPi3yJrk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdAb-a3D5gE



It's unfortunate that the argument whittles down to confirmation bias so often though.

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

I would find how you drew the conversation ridiculous, but then I thought about the fact that it's pretty easy to find out that guitars are largely consistent, regardless of bodily construction. I.e that wood, finish, etc. means next to nothing or nothing for a solid-body. Examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=augwxdUHhPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_GuPi3yJrk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdAb-a3D5gE



It's unfortunate that the argument whittles down to confirmation bias so often though.

That first video should put an end to the debate about somehow a finish can have an effect on the magnetic field of the pickups. Hell that had a metal license plate under.

[cyclopsbookworm]

I could see that, sure. I can fine tune just about any instrument to sound at least OK. From my experience tho, when I try to run effects through my mahogany SG, it tends to mush out and I switch to my poplar/maple V. On the opposite end, my poplar guitar sounds too bright when I'm not using effects or a ton of distortion, so I use my SG when I play darker passages.

It also doesn't explain how a pickup can sound good in one instrument and terrible in another. Is that a result of the total mass and density of the body? I also notice it more with guitars than basses.

Still,even unplugged my Ibanez GSR sounds much snappier than my Spector and my Spector sounds deeper. When plugged in, they have the same characteristics, only amplified. Would you think that is the small amount of the unamplified sound I'm hearing as the magnetic field is permanent? I assumed that would not be audible and what I'm hearing is the resonance of the instrument itself.

Cool vids though. The first one sounds horrendous, but I like that stone tele! I'd like to see one made out of something nonresonant though, like foam or a surfboard or something, just to drive the point home. I'd also like to see one not using distortion or a slide.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by Hopkins

That first video should put an end to the debate about somehow a finish can have an effect on the magnetic field of the pickups. Hell that had a metal license plate under.

Not to mention a New Jersey license plate. I'm surprised the guitar doesn't ram indiscriminately into other guitars at excessive speeds on the highwa...I mean guitar stand.

These are always fun ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=2Fi0ejOfL9k

He should probably go with Nitro next time.

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

I could see that, sure. I can fine tune just about any instrument to sound at least OK. From my experience tho, when I try to run effects through my mahogany SG, it tends to mush out and I switch to my poplar/maple V. On the opposite end, my poplar guitar sounds too bright when I'm not using effects or a ton of distortion, so I use my SG when I play darker passages.

It also doesn't explain how a pickup can sound good in one instrument and terrible in another. Is that a result of the total mass and density of the body? I also notice it more with guitars than basses.

Still,even unplugged my Ibanez GSR sounds much snappier than my Spector and my Spector sounds deeper. When plugged in, they have the same characteristics, only amplified. Would you think that is the small amount of the unamplified sound I'm hearing as the magnetic field is permanent? I assumed that would not be audible and what I'm hearing is the resonance of the instrument itself.

I have never experienced a pickup that sounds good in some instruments and terrible in others, unless the pickup positioning is completely different. My go to Jazz pickups, Rio Grande, Muy Grandes sound great in every Jazz bass I have ever used them in.

Neck wood has some influence on tone, I don't think many people would argue that a maple or ebony board is brighter sounding than a rosewood board. But body wood, and even more so, paint are a different story.

[cyclopsbookworm]

Originally Posted by Hopkins

My go to Jazz pickups, Rio Grande, Muy Grandes sound great in every Jazz bass I have ever used them in.

That makes sense. I haven't had enough basses yet to experiment with this, I've only noticed it with guitar humbuckers, and it might be that I threw off the balance between the two pups by changing one out and not the other.

Awesome 5 gallon bass! That's the kind of vid I was looking for. I still like my Spector tho!

I wanna go tear some craigslist cheapos apart now. Lol.

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

That makes sense. I haven't had enough basses yet to experiment with this, I've only noticed it with guitar humbuckers, and it might be that I threw off the balance between the two pups by changing one out and not the other.

Awesome 5 gallon bass! That's the kind of vid I was looking for. I still like my Spector tho!

I wanna go tear some craigslist cheapos apart now. Lol.

If you have two pickups out of phase they will sound awful

[Beej]

Originally Posted by AuntieBeeb

But then, I still think choice-of-wood can make a significant difference to the tone a solidbody, and I expect a fair few people would laugh at me for believing that!

This is arguably an example of belief bias...

[Beej]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

All I know is that my ears can tell the difference between a well-maintained instrument and one that's been left in the garage of the beach house rotting for 10 years. I'm sure that has more to do with a twisting neck and rusting electronics than anything, but to me instrument maintenance makes a difference. Just like there's a difference between a $99 walmart ax and one that someone spent a considerable amount of time and effort to get right.

If you had recordings of each bass with the tone rolled off and new strings on each, and they were played back to you, without your knowledge of which one was being played, you would likely not be able to identify which was the rotted bass. This is arguably a distinction bias...

[Beej]

Originally Posted by cyclopsbookworm

From my experience tho, when I try to run effects through my mahogany SG, it tends to mush out and I switch to my poplar/maple V. On the opposite end, my poplar guitar sounds too bright when I'm not using effects or a ton of distortion, so I use my SG when I play darker passages.

This is again confirmation bias if you are making the assumption that what is accounting for the bulk of the perceived difference is the wood. There are other considerable differences between the two. For example pickup type and location. String type, scale length, construction, etc.

It also doesn't explain how a pickup can sound good in one instrument and terrible in another. Is that a result of the total mass and density of the body? I also notice it more with guitars than basses.

Good and terrible are subjective measures that are not only not quantifiable (or likely even qualifiable) but very likely not replicable with another person. So it is actually a result of attentional bias.

Still,even unplugged my Ibanez GSR sounds much snappier than my Spector and my Spector sounds deeper. When plugged in, they have the same characteristics, only amplified. Would you think that is the small amount of the unamplified sound I'm hearing as the magnetic field is permanent? I assumed that would not be audible and what I'm hearing is the resonance of the instrument itself.

Several cognitive biases at work here. Attentional bias, belief bias, confirmation bias, contrast effect, and more!

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, just that you have been repeating the same biases over and over here...

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

Wrong. The permanent magnet sets up a magnetic field. The string, being ferromagnetic, in close proximity, and vibrating, warps the field in a periodic manner. This creates a time-varying flux through the gaussian surface described by the coil. This produces a voltage in the coil proportional to the rate of change of magnetic flux.

Wait a minute, Doc. Ah... Are you telling me that you built a time machine... out of a DeLorean?

[JoeWPgh]

Out of the can, so to speak? No difference whatsoever. The question become more relevant with age. Nitro will thin/wear. It will eventually expose the bass' wood to moisture/humidity/oxygen. The difference might be subtle, but gear heads spend tons chasing subtle improvements. Personally, I think nitro provides a far deeper finish and is just more pleasing to the touch. On the other side of the age coin is what happens with poly over the years. To my feel, it develops micro scratches which fill with oil from your fingers, and ends up feeling greasy. That said, it's a far better seal againt the environment. All said, I greatly prefer nitro, but I doubt sound enters into it.

[cyclopsbookworm]

Originally Posted by Beej

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, just that you have been repeating the same biases over and over here...

Lol, could have fooled me. Of course, I'm just an unknown from the peanut gallery who knows nothing about music because I'm not an engineer. Lol, Just bustin your chops for being on me like white on rice.

All I'm saying is there is an organic quality to instruments, with certain instruments excelling for certain things. I'm not suggesting this is all the body wood, for I even ask in my posts what would also influence these things. Those questions seem to get glossed over so we can all agree how wrong I am on everything. Yet I'm still not convinced that instruments all sound the same, I only interpret them to be different. That's like saying red and green are the same color, I just see them as different.

All things said, I know there is a science to these things, and I don't claim to be an expert, or even an avid amateur, on these things. But the simple fact is that science and physics don't make Justin Beiber music, if you can call it that, appealing to me. Same for Yngwie Malmsteen. Great player, highly 'scientific' and technical. Not very groovy or organic to 'my' ears. Are those biased opinions? Absolutely. All music is bias. Even chords and scales are what someone has said works well together. Bias.

Anyway, Cheers to all. Not trying to make enemies here, just offer my thoughts on what I thought was a public forum.

Now for some bass therapy!