Does paint make difference in tone?

[Toptube]

I'd wager that most decent bass paint jobs probably weigh half a pound. Some of the thicker poly finishes may weigh even more. In that sense, it definitely effects tone. How much is anyone's guess/goal for experimentation.

Also, the people who believe that a "top" effects tone (for better or worse), should also believe that paint does, too. Again, especially those super hard poly finishes.


I smacked my Ibanez SRT pretty darn hard one time, right on the edge of the body and there is barely a sign of it. That paint certainly affects the bass.

[Dean N]

Originally Posted by Toptube

I'd wager that most decent bass paint jobs probably weigh half a pound. Some of the thicker poly finishes may weigh even more. In that sense, it definitely effects tone.

How does it? How does paint affect the current generated in pickups by strings? For that matter, how does vibrating or resonating wood affect current generated in pickups by strings?

Show, don't tell. Show us some information. Please.

[HolmeBass]

Well Dean, show us that it doesn't. Mount the same hardware on a noodle, then on a pine neck and body, then on maple, and then on basswood, and finally on a 3 ton granite block and prove that body/neck material make absolutely no difference.

The stiffness and inertia of the witness points at both ends of a vibrating string absolutely affect the leakage of vibrational energy from the string into the body/neck of the bass, by the amount that they cause deviation from perfect reflection of the internal transverse wave traveling along the string at each boundary (google standing waves to understand that standing waves are mathematically described as two equal amplitude, phase-locked translational waves moving in the opposite direction, commonly due to reflection of the translational wave at container boundaries). So non-idealized reflection changes the energy in the string, allowing some to leak off into the neck and body, and this leakage is not even across the frequency spectrum. Vibration induced in the neck and body then cause additional motion of the witness points, re-leaking some energy back into the string, so this interaction is non-linear. These differences in string vibration are picked up by the transducer, the pickup, and in that way the vibration of the neck and body influence the current in the pickup.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Well Dean, show us that it doesn't. Mount the same hardware on a noodle, then on a pine neck and body, then on maple, and then on basswood, and finally on a 3 ton granite block and prove that body/neck material make absolutely no difference.

The stiffness and inertia of the witness points at both ends of a vibrating string absolutely affect the leakage of vibrational energy from the string into the body/neck of the bass, by the amount that they cause deviation from perfect reflection of the internal transverse wave traveling along the string at each boundary (google standing waves to understand that standing waves are mathematically described as two equal amplitude, phase-locked translational waves moving in the opposite direction, commonly due to reflection of the translational wave at container boundaries). So non-idealized reflection changes the energy in the string, allowing some to leak off into the neck and body, and this leakage is not even across the frequency spectrum. Vibration induced in the neck and body then cause additional motion of the witness points, re-leaking some energy back into the string, so this interaction is non-linear. These differences in string vibration are picked up by the transducer, the pickup, and in that way the vibration of the neck and body influence the current in the pickup.

Why non-linear? The fact that energy goes both ways through the witness points, and even that it may be transformed in the frequency domain on each side of those points, does not imply non-linearity.

It is, overall, a non-linear system, but not necessarily due to that factor.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by Dean N

How does it? How does paint affect the current generated in pickups by strings? For that matter, how does vibrating or resonating wood affect current generated in pickups by strings?

Show, don't tell. Show us some information. Please.

Vibration of the body vibrates the witness points, which vibrate the strings, which is picked up by the pickups. In examining an electromechanical system, one can't neglect that it is a mechanical system.

The degree of influence of the body is debatable, but non-zero.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by Toptube

I'd wager that most decent bass paint jobs probably weigh half a pound. Some of the thicker poly finishes may weigh even more.

This is an interesting statement, that, correct or incorrect, is testable/measurable.

Does any builder here
a) maintain their instruments in a tenperature- and humidity- controlled environment both before and after finishing, and
b) have a sensitive scale, which could measure mass before and after finishing in order to deduce the amount of residual finish on the instrument?

[Dean N]

This subject has come up more than a few times, and this is the first time I remember reading a solid answer. Hopefully I didn't come off as too snarky. I wanted to be just snarky enough to get some constructive answers.

So, the idea is, 1) string is plucked; 2) energy, as vibration, is transferred through witness points (nodes) to the instrument body (and neck and all the other bits); 3) the vibration returns back to the strings via witness points and this sums with the initial (primary?) vibration of the string to create a unique character; 4) pickups create current based on this character.

Also, another pathway here is probably string vibration -> air -> instrument -> air -> string.

My point is, since pickups function by induction, and are not microphonic, the only thing they're being directly affected by is the vibrating string. Might be obvious to some, but I bet this isn't very well understood by a lot of musicians.

So how would paint affect the reflection of vibration back into the string? Also, how would relative stiffness of the system (you know, comparing body components that aren't wet noodles) affect these vibrations, aside from the likely decrease in amplitude? (I'm asking.. not arguing... I think this is a good discussion.) Would these affect harmonics?

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by Toptube

I'd wager that most decent bass paint jobs probably weigh half a pound. Some of the thicker poly finishes may weigh even more. In that sense, it definitely effects tone. How much is anyone's guess/goal for experimentation.

Also, the people who believe that a "top" effects tone (for better or worse), should also believe that paint does, too. Again, especially those super hard poly finishes.


I smacked my Ibanez SRT pretty darn hard one time, right on the edge of the body and there is barely a sign of it. That paint certainly affects the bass.

I am about to start a new build, Its going to have a two part automotive urethane finish on it. I think I'm going to weigh it before and after finishing and see exactly how much a finish weighs.

I have never given much thought to how much weight the finish would add, but now I am curious.

[HolmeBass]

Dean N, to be fair, energy retransmitting from vibrating witness points (the bridge and the nut) is probably far less influential than just the energy lost from the string to the body and neck.

[killer]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Dean N, to be fair, energy retransmitting from vibrating witness points (the bridge and the nut) is probably far less influential than just the energy lost from the string to the body and neck.

A neck bolt on the body or glued to the body ( or body trough like on rickenbacker ) makes different vibrations and sustain ..
so the body influence the strings vibrations.

[Dean N]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Dean N, to be fair, energy retransmitting from vibrating witness points (the bridge and the nut) is probably far less influential than just the energy lost from the string to the body and neck.

I totally agree.

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by killer

A neck bolt on the body or glued to the body ( or body trough like on rickenbacker ) makes different vibrations and sustain ..
so the body influence the strings vibrations.

I completely disagree with this.

String Tension will be constant between any type of neck joint. As long as the neck joint is solid, it will have no effect on string tension, and there for vibration.

I have played bolt on necks that have sustained for days, and neck through basses that don't sustain as much.

[Toptube]

Originally Posted by Hopkins

I completely disagree with this.

String Tension will be constant between any type of neck joint. As long as the neck joint is solid, it will have no effect on string tension, and there for vibration.

I have played bolt on necks that have sustained for days, and neck through basses that don't sustain as much.

maybe his language isn't clear, but he's talking about the energy transfer between the neck and the body.

for all three; bolt-on, set-neck, neck-thru, its going to generally be different. Its not going to affect the general design of how strings are mounted, intonated, and tuned up to tension. But it will affect how they vibrate.

You could also do a variant of a bolt-on that uses threaded inserts to anchor the bolts for more torque. Thus, increasing the coupling between the neck and the body. There's also instances where you use more or less bolts.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Dean N, to be fair, energy retransmitting from vibrating witness points (the bridge and the nut) is probably far less influential than just the energy lost from the string to the body and neck.

Incorrect assumption.

Vibration entering the G string out-of-phase through the 7th (or so) fret is the cause of the "Fender" dead spot. Highly influential, going beyond just affecting timbre, all the way to either killing the note on some basses, or killing the fundamental and other odd-numbered partials on other basses, making it jump an octave as a "wolf tone."

[killer]

Originally Posted by Toptube

maybe his language isn't clear, but he's talking about the energy transfer between the neck and the body.

for all three; bolt-on, set-neck, neck-thru, its going to generally be different. Its not going to affect the general design of how strings are mounted, intonated, and tuned up to tension. But it will affect how they vibrate.

You could also do a variant of a bolt-on that uses threaded inserts to anchor the bolts for more torque. Thus, increasing the coupling between the neck and the body. There's also instances where you use more or less bolts.

Yep that's what I'm try to say.
I hate the fact that I don't speak English well

[MPU]

Originally Posted by Toptube

I'd wager that most decent bass paint jobs probably weigh half a pound. Some of the thicker poly finishes may weigh even more.

I doubt that finish would weight that much. If you count the volume that the dried finish is it should be at least (as most finishes float on water) 0,225 litres to weight half pound. It's 2250cm2 or 0,225m2 of 1mm thick finish. I doubt any finish is 1mm thick or if so, that's very thick finish, like dipped in liquid plastic.

[svt1233]

this is like "will different knobs affect my tone"

[Hopkins]

Originally Posted by Toptube

maybe his language isn't clear, but he's talking about the energy transfer between the neck and the body.

for all three; bolt-on, set-neck, neck-thru, its going to generally be different. Its not going to affect the general design of how strings are mounted, intonated, and tuned up to tension. But it will affect how they vibrate.

You could also do a variant of a bolt-on that uses threaded inserts to anchor the bolts for more torque. Thus, increasing the coupling between the neck and the body. There's also instances where you use more or less bolts.

I understood what he said.

I still don't agree with it. The only way a neck joint is going to effect the sound of the instrument is if its a poor neck joint. Then the instrument would be unplayable because string tension would lift the joint from the body.

[brotherbassj]

Originally Posted by musicman666

What color for Christian Metal?

Yellow and Black man! Think Stryper