Epoxy v.s. CA; feel, clarity, etc.

[ii7-V7]

On a fretless fingerboard I'm contemplating Epoxy v.s. CA (Superglue). I definetly don't want a sticky feel like polyurethane. I'm worried that epoxy will have that sticky feel?

Is this true?

What are some other virtues of Epoxy v.s. CA?

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by chaddukes

On a fretless fingerboard I'm contemplating Epoxy v.s. CA (Superglue). I definetly don't want a sticky feel like polyurethane. I'm worried that epoxy will have that sticky feel?

Is this true?

What are some other virtues of Epoxy v.s. CA?

You can't really define "epoxy" as one hardness or another because there are so many types that are blended for different applications. The quick-set epoxies are definitely softer than slow-set for instance, and marine epoxy designed as a coating is very different from an epoxy designed intended as an adhesive. You can have just about any hardness you desire by researching the data sheets for a particular version that meets your needs. HG Thor down in Miami uses a very hard epoxy on their boards. It's probably the best coating of it's kind available. I use CA because of it's speed and ease of use. It's extremely hard too. I personally haven't seen much difference between the superhard epoxies and CA when the fingerboard is finished. If it's a good job, it will be hard to tell one way or the other.

[ii7-V7]

I was going to use West Marine epoxy if I went that route.

So, if you can't tell the difference between CA and epoxy, but CA is easier to apply....why would I use epoxy?

Can I use any ol' CA that I find at Home Depot?

Chad

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by chaddukes

I was going to use West Marine epoxy if I went that route.

So, if you can't tell the difference between CA and epoxy, but CA is easier to apply....why would I use epoxy?

Can I use any ol' CA that I find at Home Depot?

Chad

You ask me - since "I" can't tell the difference why would "you" use it? I don't know why you should use it.

I do know that CA is a very hazardous material. The fumes are dangerous to your eyes and lungs and it requires a NIOSH respirator mask to work with it. As far as it being easier to apply, I should have qualified that - It's easier for ME to apply and get right than the epoxy. But the application technique I use is one that I figured out on my own and it takes some practice to get right. In the meantime, you'll make a mess of your work practicing. The West product you are intending to use is fine for this purpose - it's a common brand for this sort of thing.

The reason I like CA is that you can coat and refinish an entire neck in an afternoon because the CA dries so much quicker.

[tjclem]

I use the slow dry ca I mask off the area around the fingerboard and I do it outside. Apply with a playing card......t

[wilser]

marine grade epoxy will not have a sticky feel, and although epoxy might be more laborious to apply CA is quite a bit more dangerous. CA vapors can make you dizzy and even pass out.

[FBB Custom]

Yeah, CA is nasty stuff. If you are so bold as to go that route have proper ventillation and a serious mask with eye protection.

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by FBB Custom

Yeah, CA is nasty stuff. If you are so bold as to go that route have proper ventillation and a serious mask with eye protection.

It's really no more hazardous than other solvents that can get in the eyes, nose, and respiration system. You have to use personal protection equipment like it was a real job. It is just a bit more caustic smelling and it stings the eyes but so does ammonia and that's even more deadly. So wear the protection and use plenty of ventilation and you'll be fine. I even use a little fan to blow fumes away from directly above the work so that I can occupy that space. It all works out in the end.

[ii7-V7]

Well, I went the CA route since I figured it was easier and cheaper. I'm doing it outside so I'm not worried about fumes. I'm waiting for my third coat to dry now. I'm going to do at least two more.

The first coat I put on was rather thick but the untreated board almost completely soaked it up. It wasn't until the second coat that I could really tell that it was building up. I can also definetly tell the difference between the look of the first and second coat. The first coat looked horrendous. The second coat was better but still not great.

[Suburban]

Originally Posted by chaddukes

Well, I went the CA route since I figured it was easier and cheaper. I'm doing it outside so I'm not worried about fumes.

You should still worry.
Even though Hambone is correct in that other chemicals also are dangerous, there is a little difference.
CA means cyanoacrylate. 'Cyano' means that it contains cyanide as one very active component. Cyanide has both short and long term effects, of which none is very nice: death, of course, pneumo-cardial disfunction, reproductive disorders, second generations dysfunctions....
Working out doors is a good idea.
You still need a great breathing protection, and eye protection, too.
You should still have a fan to make sure that there is a continous wind...

BTW, you should take the same precautions working with polyester, epoxi, polyurethane and whatever solvents except water.

[JTGale]

Originally Posted by Hambone

... The reason I like CA is that you can coat and refinish an entire neck in an afternoon because the CA dries so much quicker.

Are you using any type of accelerator?

jtg

[tjclem]

I would bet he isn't using one it drys fast enough.

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by JTGale

Are you using any type of accelerator?

jtg

No, accelerators work good in adhesive situations where there's a tight fit between parts but not so good when you are trying to make smooth surfaces. When a drop of accelerator hits wet CA, it tends to sort of "bubble" the surface and makes it rough, increasing the work you'll have to get it smooth. I let it dry naturally, while I'll add some heat and moist air to help it cure.

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by Suburban

You should still worry.
Even though Hambone is correct in that other chemicals also are dangerous, there is a little difference.
CA means cyanoacrylate. 'Cyano' means that it contains cyanide as one very active component. Cyanide has both short and long term effects, of which none is very nice: death, of course, pneumo-cardial disfunction, reproductive disorders, second generations dysfunctions....
Working out doors is a good idea.
You still need a great breathing protection, and eye protection, too.
You should still have a fan to make sure that there is a continous wind...

BTW, you should take the same precautions working with polyester, epoxi, polyurethane and whatever solvents except water.

While cyanide is a compund found in CA glue, cyanide isn't a danger in most cases. I researched the question and found out that cyanide gas is only released from CA glue during pyostasis or the burning of the cured glue. Though I gleaned this info from several different sources, here is a more concise treatise on the dangers of cyanide in superglue:

[Q] Is it true that CA glue is made from Cyanide? Can I poison myself with it?
[A] Shingend@ix.netcom.com (Mark and/or Mary Shannon)

[I had to wade through several layers of email attributions to figure out who authored this - please let me know if I got it wrong.]

As a qualified chemist (Ph.D. in the ruddy subject), let me try to clarify the point.

Cyanoacrylate glues contain the group H2C=CH-CN: Where the = represents a double bond between two carbons and there is a triple bond between the carbon and nitrogen of the CN. CN is the 'cyano' group, and a three-carbon chain with a double bond next to another type of multiple bond (or some other form of electron rich group such as a radical or anion) is an 'acrylic' group -- the combination gives a relatively high reactivity to the compounds and allows them to polymerize like a plastic. Many non-toxic compounds contain both types of groups, and many medicines have cyano groups. Along with this group, there are other chemicals and can be other chains attached to that cyanoacrylate group in place of one or more of the hydrogens.

There is NO, NONE, NADA cyanide released on curing these glues and hardening. There are some obnoxious fumes released -- some of them just parts that boil out from the heat of the curing reaction. BUT, whenever an organic chemical that contains nitrogen is burned, some cyanogen/hydrogen cyanide is released. This happens with tobacco, meat, veggies, fireplace wood, etc. This release is worst when there is not enough oxygen present in the burning zone to ensure complete combustion -- so if there is a lot of smoke formation, there is more likelyhood of cyanide formation.

As with any chemical process, it is best to have good ventilation when dealing with these compounds, but most Cyanoacrylate glues have been formulated as non-toxic (some of the original uses were as skin and tissue glues to replace sutures in surgery). If you are burning CA glues, do it in the same hood you use for spray painting. This goes for operations where you are using CA glue to hold parts for soldering, especially, since the fluxes and the modest burning temperatures add their own brew to the mix. Combustion Chemistry is a field in itself, and there are many things not understood about general rules of chemical formation in various conditions of burning organic compounds. I would suggest that everyone play it safer than they might normally when they are burning any of the materials used in this hobby.

Not being argumentative - just clear and precise.

[JTGale]

Originally Posted by Hambone

No, accelerators work good in adhesive situations where there's a tight fit between parts but not so good when you are trying to make smooth surfaces. When a drop of accelerator hits wet CA, it tends to sort of "bubble" the surface and makes it rough, increasing the work you'll have to get it smooth. I let it dry naturally, while I'll add some heat and moist air to help it cure.

Sorry to prolong the point, but have you used CA with an accelerator for seating new fret wire? I have yet to try that since I am not too sure that I can move all that fast when refreting! ;-) But seriously, I have been wanting to give it a shot in hopes of shortening refreting time. Does it help?

jtg

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by JTGale

Sorry to prolong the point, but have you used CA with an accelerator for seating new fret wire? I have yet to try that since I am not too sure that I can move all that fast when refreting! ;-) But seriously, I have been wanting to give it a shot in hopes of shortening refreting time. Does it help?

jtg

I've put it in frets but I haven't use finally an accelerator. There's no reason I can think of that you couldn't though. It's just that I usually don't have any on hand when I really need it.

[SBassman]

Can anyone say more about how to apply CA?

One person said with a playing card. Do you just pour it and push it in the right direction?

What technique and materials would you use for sanding/polishing afterwards?

[ii7-V7]

I simply used rubber gloves and rubbed it in with my fingers. By the way, the glue job worked pretty well. Its not as good looking as HG Thor's jobs, but its functional. I would say that you need to pay extra attention to the shape of your fret board before you apply the CA.

[davesisk]

Excellent...I was just considering coating a fretless rosewood fingerboard with SuperGlue...glad I searched and found this post! Sounds like it is indeed a pretty good idea. It has a very woody sound, but isn't quite bright enough for my tastes. I'm thinking hardening the fingerboard to a moderate degree with CA/Superglue should brighten it up quite a bit.

I saw a post somewhere else that said in order to pretty much avoid having to sand it, clean it first with alcohol, then apply extremely thin coats and rub it into the wood with wax paper. Thoughts on this application idea? I know I've done this with a fretboard repair on a fretted bass before (superglue plus some sawdust of the correct variety)...

TIA,
Dave

[Nomad98]

There is a great article in this months "Bass _______" Magazine! (Is it against the forum rules to say the magazine here?)

It's a little how to on CA application! Very easy and straight forward.

Nomad98