Fret material - other than steel and brass

ElephantTalk · #1 05-16-2006, 09:44 AM

Curiousity...has anyone tried to build frets from another material other than steel and brass?

I understand that wear would be the issue, but maybe bone or graphite would suffice for a little while.

Anyone heard of it or tried it out?

andvari7 · #2 05-17-2006, 08:13 PM

I think I may have used bone on a sitar (and I liked it a lot), but I have actually been wondering for a few weeks whether titanium would be a good (albeit expensive) idea.

Geoff St. Germaine · #3 05-17-2006, 08:43 PM

How about ultrahard fullerite?

sargebaker · #4 05-17-2006, 08:47 PM

this could be interesting. How would bone sound?

**Mark Wilson** · #5 05-17-2006, 10:00 PM

I just had an idea.

Frets that mold into the fretboard to give you that fretless sound, but pop back up.

For all those players who like the sound of a fretless, but the feel of a fretted.

COPYRIGHTED!!!

-Mark

ehque · #6 05-18-2006, 02:42 AM

mark, you mean like hard foam frets? im so sure that will work, you can have that copyright all you want

bone might work. im thinking ebony will wear out too fast, with the small point of contact, and it might be trouble trying to install what really is ebony toothpicks into a neck. refretting will be a nightmare.

im thinking - about anything you use as nut material will probably be useful as frets. carbon fiber, maybe?

Peter McFerrin · #7 05-18-2006, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

I just had an idea.

Frets that mold into the fretboard to give you that fretless sound, but pop back up.

For all those players who like the sound of a fretless, but the feel of a fretted.

COPYRIGHTED!!!

-Mark

ElephantTalk · #8 05-18-2006, 07:25 AM

I'll probably look farther into using bone.

Imagine a bass neck with diamond frets on it.
Hell, someone out there makes those million dollar diamond bras for Victoria's Secret.

Beav · #9 05-18-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElephantTalk

I'll probably look farther into using bone.

Imagine a bass neck with diamond frets on it.
Hell, someone out there makes those million dollar diamond bras for Victoria's Secret.

Paging Jens Ritter!

klocwerk · #10 05-18-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElephantTalk

I'll probably look farther into using bone.

Bone might be interesting, but you have to remember that it'll wear out a lot faster than metal frets would.

If you're selling this bass, I think full disclosure of that fact is in order.

Drake Kennedy · #11 05-18-2006, 04:55 PM

Carbon fiber would be a very interesting fret material. Probably a very clear tone, and it would make the fretboard material reflect more into the overall tone.

gfried84 · #12 05-18-2006, 07:04 PM

Carbon fiber would be cool beacuse of its hardness but because it is hard it is very brittle. Bone would be the same way as it is another hard but but brittle material. A nut really doesn't see too much action except some grinding from tuning and string bends. I think that metal is the best material for this particular application. When slap players thump their strings I would want bone or carbon fiber splinters hitting me in the eyes.

BassMan257 · #13 05-18-2006, 07:20 PM

Bone sounds extremely interesting...

you could be like

Hey, dont mess with me... this was a fretless untill someone touched it without asking... and these are the bones from the hand he touched it with...

actually, im quite interested in the sound aspects...

ps... i think that up then down thing has allready been accomplished, and the google video spammed like crazy on this site...

anywho, best of luck, and i want to see a finished project (whatever the material)

ehque · #14 05-18-2006, 07:25 PM

gfried, i think you may underestimate the hardness of carbon fiber...

or maybe overestimate it.

i think possibly a solution is to carve the fingerboard and frets out of one material (ebony) with a CNC machine. or mold them in one piece (graphite) then, there will be no refret problems, nor will you have the option at all. perhaps its the only fretted bass you can convert into a true unlined fretless, tho.

any one else thinking ceramics might be spiffy? TUSQ is ceramics right? corian? basically the stuff synthetic nuts are made of now. much harder than plastic, more consistent than bone.

EDIT: i JUST remembered. isnt tungsten carbide considered "industrial diamond"? its that super hard metal(?) you find in some very high end drill bits and what not.

then again, you might have quite a big problem getting it into fret shape and fretting your neck. much cheaper than diamond tho, and about as hard.

Frank Martin · #15 05-19-2006, 05:20 AM

Tungsten carbide / wolfram carbide is indeed very strong and durable, but:
- it's expensive
- hard to machine
- very heavy.

Youc an also mention depleted uranium. It's also very hard and heavy, but easier to machine. Some people will even be happy they can find a way to get rid of it. Just don't go near airports, or you'll bet arrested, that's all. Oh one more thing, thyroid cancer is normal, don't worry about it.

Geoff St. Germaine · #16 05-19-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehque

EDIT: i JUST remembered. isnt tungsten carbide considered "industrial diamond"? its that super hard metal(?) you find in some very high end drill bits and what not.

On Moh's hardness tungsten carbide is a 9, diamond is a 10. It is used for tools, but so is silicon carbide which takes a 9-10 on the Moh's hardness scale. I believe that tungsten carbide is more widely used in cutting tools than silicon carbide. Tungsten carbide is referred to as a cheap alternative to diamond.

For knoop hardness diamond, silicon carbide and tungsten carbide line up like:

Diamond: 8000 - 8500 kg/mm^2
Silicon carbide: 2150 - 2900 kg/mm^2
Tungsten carbide: 2050 - 2150 kg/mm^2

My wedding band is tungsten carbide. Very heavy and very hard, it is amazingly scratch resistant.

pilotjones · #17 05-19-2006, 11:23 AM

Bone is hard, but grinds down easily.
Carbon fiber composites are strong in tension, but not suited generally for wear.
Ceramics, including tungsten carbide, can be tremendously wear-resistant, but are brittle, expensive, and near-impossible to work with. Plus, a ceramic with any surface roughness to it would wear down the string very quickly, just like a ceramic sharpening stone will cut tool steel.
Wooden frets, even if they were ebony or even lignum vitae, would still wear much faster than metal frets.

The hard brasses, including the standard "german silver" or "nickel silver," are sort of an best compromise in fret design. They are reasonably corrosion-resistant, are hard and tough enough to wear well and last a long time in use, but they are soft/workable enough to be cut, filed, polished, etc. in installation, not to mention that they are workable enough to be formed into frets in the first place!
Stainless steel frets are available which wear even better than nickel silver, but luthiers who use them say they are a lot more work to install. Warmoth's upcharge for SS frets is in part due to the labor, not just the material.

Drake Kennedy · #18 05-19-2006, 02:09 PM

Are SS frets ridiculously hard to work with? I was planning on using them on my first bass, but would it be a bad idea for a beginner? I just heard that it was harder to bend and cut, but about the same to dress.

pilotjones · #19 05-19-2006, 05:07 PM

I don't think they were called "ridiculously" hard. One of the luthiers should chime in here.

Scott French · #20 05-19-2006, 05:33 PM

I've used stainless steel, warwick stuff and 18% nickel. Stainless Steel and the warwick stuff are about equal to work, the warwick wire being WAY bigger than anything else I've ever seen for sale. They are both harder to install than nickel but its not that much more work. I would avoid hammering them though!