Hmm...Carbon fiber?

Greg Johnsen · #1 06-02-2007, 01:03 PM

Hey guys, first I would just like to say that I have searched, and I have read the topics, but I still felt like I needed to make my own.

Alright, I read a new yorker article on Ken Parker, and it really got me thinking.

Why should I create something that's already been created? Why not try to broaden the horizons with something new?

Now, I know carbon fiber has been used by many companies (and one even named themselves after a part of carbon fiber), but they're doing things that have already been done with normal wood basses, it's just that they've replaced part of the wood with CF.

This is not what I'm after, I want to make something new, throw something else into the equation, and try to make it mine.

I would like to say that I have no experience with carbon fiber, but that has no way discouraged me, I like to try new things.

For a plan, there are a few things I need help with. I have been doing some research on carbon fiber, and would love to talk to some of you guys that have experience with this (Angus, I know you do). I know a mold is a necessity, but I was wondering if it's possible to make a mold out of wood, slightly smaller than the product should be, lay the carbon fiber over the mold (with wax paper or some kind of non-stick surface), and then brush resin over the CF to harden it, and allow the CF and resin to cure (maybe put it in the oven?)

I do not know how strong carbon fiber is. I know for some purposes it can be the ultimate material, but what I'm really trying to get after is; will one layer of carbon fiber (or a shell rather) be sufficient to support a neck, or does the neck have to be solid?

Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I am nowhere close to done thinking out this thing, and I do want to do carbon fiber wings/body, and a CF neck. I'm just looking for some help on the subject right now.

Thanks guys, sorry for me chasing after another wild dream.

Greg

Jay Terrien · #2 06-02-2007, 01:17 PM

Parker, Status Graphite, Zon, and Modulus have each contributed to the advancement of carbon fiber and graphite instruments. Each of these companies has also dumped in TONS of R+D $$$$ and time to get their products to where they are today.

I'll make a bass with ya!!

JT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Fleaz0rz

Hey guys, first I would just like to say that I have searched, and I have read the topics, but I still felt like I needed to make my own.

Alright, I read a new yorker article on Ken Parker, and it really got me thinking.

Why should I create something that's already been created? Why not try to broaden the horizons with something new?

Now, I know carbon fiber has been used by many companies (and one even named themselves after a part of carbon fiber), but they're doing things that have already been done with normal wood basses, it's just that they've replaced part of the wood with CF.

This is not what I'm after, I want to make something new, throw something else into the equation, and try to make it mine.

I would like to say that I have no experience with carbon fiber, but that has no way discouraged me, I like to try new things.

For a plan, there are a few things I need help with. I have been doing some research on carbon fiber, and would love to talk to some of you guys that have experience with this (Angus, I know you do). I know a mold is a necessity, but I was wondering if it's possible to make a mold out of wood, slightly smaller than the product should be, lay the carbon fiber over the mold (with wax paper or some kind of non-stick surface), and then brush resin over the CF to harden it, and allow the CF and resin to cure (maybe put it in the oven?)

I do not know how strong carbon fiber is. I know for some purposes it can be the ultimate material, but what I'm really trying to get after is; will one layer of carbon fiber (or a shell rather) be sufficient to support a neck, or does the neck have to be solid?

Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I am nowhere close to done thinking out this thing, and I do want to do carbon fiber wings/body, and a CF neck. I'm just looking for some help on the subject right now.

Thanks guys, sorry for me chasing after another wild dream.

Greg

Angus · #3 06-02-2007, 01:40 PM

At the risk of sounding a bit curt- why?

I know there is a burning desire in every young perosn to break new ground, forge new paths, do something nobody has done before, et al, but I think in this case you're putting the hyped-up cart before the horse.

My guess is the reason for carbon fiber is that it's a buzz word. It just sounds like something that would be cool, right? Well, if you really want to tread new ground in composite instrument construction, then you really, really, really need to have a solid understanding of the fields you are trying to work within. After all, if you don't have a solid understanding of the thing you are trying to improve, and don't have a solid grasp on what the needs really are, then how can you possibly hope to make it better?

Basically, I'm saying wait. If you want to create a fantastic instrument, spend your time and money building more simple, basic instruments out of cheap, plain woods and concentrate all of your energy on making it perfectly precise, refining your methods and improving the quality and craftsmanship. None of this ridiculous wood business- it only serves to draw attention away from what you should be focusing on. Learn not to cut corners and take time to make sure everything is absolutely perfect the first time through, even if it involves taking time, waiting, and asking questions. You need to learn how to make very solid, good quality instruments before you can move on to going where nobody has gone before, or else you might end up going in big, expensive circles.

Same goes for composite fabrication. It's not as simple as you make it sound, and by the sound of it you really haven't done your research beyond looking it up on the internet. Go to a local university's engineering library and look up and read everything you can. Then, if you really want to pursue it, start by making very small, very simple items. When they are perfect, take the next baby step up. It's like anything else- you have to walk before you can run or else you'll trip over yourself over and over again.

If you need one sentence, though, that'll put you off for the moment...one prototype carbon neck, which will undoubtedly be completely junk if you try to start there (or anywhere near there), will cost you more than your previous bass that is so far unfinished. A completed, usable neck? Probably more than your next 10.

You have a lot of research ahead of you. You're very young- you are lucky to have lots of time ahead of you. Having started so early, your best strategy would be to put your time in like everyone else and really LEARN the craft before you try to expand upon it.

I may not have answered any of your actual questions, but I don't think that's really the point at this time.

Angus · #4 06-02-2007, 01:41 PM

Also, for what it's worth, don't underestimate the amount of time and knowledge of the current CF basses made today. I've had a Modulus for many many years now and 3 Zons, and they are incredible instruments. Status, too, does absolutely fabulous CF work. But there are a lot of years and manhours into the research, udnerstanding, and development of said products. They didn't get that way overnight.

pilotjones · #5 06-02-2007, 02:11 PM

Greg

Not sure what you're talking about here: doing a CF composite shell over wood has been done many times.

I'm also dubious of going off in new unplanned directions (if you find one) without knowing first what problem you're trying to solve, although it could still produce good results, but likely after a lot of investment.

Greg Johnsen · #6 06-02-2007, 03:54 PM

Thanks Angus, I'll try to go to the local libraries and do what I can woth research. I don't know if GT has some good information, but I'll contact them and see what they can do.

About the CF over wood, So is it just that easy? But the carbon fiber weave over a wood mold, epoxy it, then bake it to cure?

I need to look up the process of using it, and Angus, if you can help at all with that, it would be appreciated.

I do understand that I need to make alot more before I try doing something new, but it never hurts to ask now, right?

I was thinking for the body though...

Make a mold for the bass out of MDF or something, put wax paper on the back, put the CF material over the wax paper (I would be putting this on the back and sides, leaving the top exposed), epoxy it, then let it cure as usual. Take the mold out and I should have the bottom and sides right? It would just be a shell, but then I would add a wood top to the bass for resonance. There would also be a block of wood in the center of the bass for sustain and tone, and to hold the routings.

Again, help would be greatly appreciated.

Angus, why do you say that carbon fiber is so expensive to use? Why would it cost me so much to attempt to make a neck?

Thanks

Greg

Ray Holt · #7 06-02-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angus

After all, if you don't have a solid understanding of the thing you are trying to improve, and don't have a solid grasp on what the needs really are, then how can you possibly hope to make it better?

Basically, I'm saying wait. If you want to create a fantastic instrument, spend your time and money building more simple, basic instruments out of cheap, plain woods and concentrate all of your energy on making it perfectly precise, refining your methods and improving the quality and craftsmanship. None of this ridiculous wood business- it only serves to draw attention away from what you should be focusing on. Learn not to cut corners and take time to make sure everything is absolutely perfect the first time through, even if it involves taking time, waiting, and asking questions. You need to learn how to make very solid, good quality instruments before you can move on to going where nobody has gone before, or else you might end up going in big, expensive circles.

That pretty much sums it up. You have built one bass so far, correct? I would put a lot more time into learning the traditional ways, and like Angus said, getting them down pat. I'm about to finish my 4th instrument, and I'm still pretty much on the basics. On this one I made it semi-hollow (a new step, not a very difficult or involved one, but something new), did wooden binding (a real challenge on the tips of the horns) and I did some engraving on my inlay. That's as crazy as I have gotten. I can see my chops improving, and I'm going to keep building traditional instruments until they're flawless. Even then, they will most likely be traditional, maybe just with more of my own taste, or more challenging wood working.

And as many have mentioned, money is a huge restraint.

A very simple, clean, well executed instrument is far more impressive than you think.

MoonDoggy · #8 06-02-2007, 04:28 PM

Also, you said you wanted the neck to be hollow, correct? Bluntly put, that is simply impossible w/ something like carbon fiber. Solid graphite necks can still develop a bow over time, so a truss rod is still a great benefit. With a hollow neck, how would you mount a truss rod?

Also, there are several factors that play into the carbon fiber itself. The weave pattern, the strand thickness, unidirectional or cross-woven patterns, and how the weave should be alternated between each layer. I had to do a research paper for one of my Strength of Material classes in college, and I've found that carbon fiber is much more than just putting an epoxy or resin on a sheet of woven graphite, especially if it serves structural purposes. If you are sticking with just putting a sheet over a wooden neck, then the carbon will serve more of a cosmetic purpose and all the other factors will not be as important.

Angus · #9 06-02-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Fleaz0rz

About the CF over wood, So is it just that easy? But the carbon fiber weave over a wood mold, epoxy it, then bake it to cure?

No, it is nowhere near that easy. I didn't answer the question last time because it isn't where your focus should be at this point, but the straight up answer for it is simply no, that is not how it works.

Quote:

I need to look up the process of using it, and Angus, if you can help at all with that, it would be appreciated.

Quote:

I do understand that I need to make alot more before I try doing something new, but it never hurts to ask now, right?

Sure sure, but I think it's the general attitude towards your work thus far that has me questioning the need to go into all this yet. I'm still not sure if you want to do it because you want to take bass construction somewhere it hasn't been before, or whether you are just getting caught up in cosmetics.

The enthusiasm is great, it's just that it's clear you either haven't done much research (fair enough at this stage) or whether you misunderstand or underestimate what's really required.

Quote:

Make a mold for the bass out of MDF or something, put wax paper on the back, put the CF material over the wax paper (I would be putting this on the back and sides, leaving the top exposed), epoxy it, then let it cure as usual. Take the mold out and I should have the bottom and sides right? It would just be a shell, but then I would add a wood top to the bass for resonance. There would also be a block of wood in the center of the bass for sustain and tone, and to hold the routings.

There are a lot of problems here. Wax paper? Besides the fact that wax paper isn't nonstick when cooking, let alone when working with epoxy, it's not breathable or flat. I can tell you that the fact that you want to use wax paper as a ply is enough information for me to tell you you have a LOT of reading to do.

Although it's a bit unclear, the way you are using the CF there would completely negate one of it's structural advantages- weight. Resins are heavy and you would have a large buildup in the mold, and that wouldn't help anything.

Do yourself a favor and read up everything you can on composite fabrication and the process before you want to try to lay out plans about how you are going to use it! It'll save you a lot of time and hassle.

Quote:

Angus, why do you say that carbon fiber is so expensive to use? Why would it cost me so much to attempt to make a neck?

Have you ever priced out CF fiber and layup supplies? And that doesn't incude the time and money in making a mold, which is really labor intensive and can be expensive to do right. Not to mention an oven, vacuum pump, et al.

Angus · #10 06-02-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonDoggy

If you are sticking with just putting a sheet over a wooden neck, then the carbon will serve more of a cosmetic purpose and all the other factors will not be as important.

Agreed here, to a point.

Greg, while a single sheet on the outside of a wood neck is theoretically located at the point of max bending stress, CF is very weak in bending (as opposed to tension/compression), so it's in no way the optimal implementation, as the wood is likely going to be doing most of the work. I'd be leary of using it this way.

By the way, I'm not trying to sound negative here, I just want you to understand that this is something worth investigating in the future but probably not worth your time and money at this point when it could be better spent on other things!

pilotjones · #11 06-02-2007, 08:52 PM

Greg, there was a thread a few months back, an RIT student doing a CF composite bass. You should find it--first, because it goes into some of the complexities that you haven't even begun to consider, and second to note the fact that he had to take an incomplete for his course because it was taking so long.

Moondoggy, I would just point out that hollow CF necks are in fact done regularly, and with trussrods, by BassLab.

Angus · #12 06-02-2007, 11:30 PM

Sorry- I misread moondoggy's comment. I thought he said "simply impossible w/o CF", not "w/", which changes the meaning. That can certainly be done. Zon and Modulus necks are also hollow, although Zon's is a different material and Modulus uses unwomen graphite shards. PJ is definitely correct.

Although with the RIT student, he also admitted that he completely put it off until the last or two or something, so that's his fault, although it was pretty much doomed from the beginning.

Greg Johnsen · #13 06-02-2007, 11:33 PM

Ah, but you see, I DO have a vacuum pump

I also have an oven, but that's used for baking and I don't know if it's the right kind of oven to be using.

I have read most of the thread you're talking about pilot, but I'll back over it again to see what I missed.

Thanks though guys.

Greg

Angus · #14 06-02-2007, 11:52 PM

Wrong oven, not safe. What kind of vacuum pump, and why haven't you mentioned it?

Greg Johnsen · #15 06-02-2007, 11:56 PM

Hmm, not sure on the type, but it works great! It's owned by my neighbor, and he's currently buying a newer bigger one to use, so I may pawn this one off of him.

Why did I not mention it? Because no one asked! Does this change my limitations in making something out of CF?

Greg

Angus · #16 06-03-2007, 12:07 AM

What does he use a vacuum pump for??

No, does not change your limitations, but it's not an item most people have and is way more important than an oven. But it does not at all change the feasibility of this project nor your readiness for it.

Still though, you've mentioned money is a limiting factor in your first build, so this is going to be way beyond your pocketbook.

Greg Johnsen · #17 06-03-2007, 12:13 AM

Ah, but that my friend is solved by a job, and no bills!

He uses a vacuum pump for veneers and random wood gluing projects. He likes to make his own stuff.

I did some more reading, and I guess I need a female mold (out of almuminum or other smooth metal), and I need a fairly large vacuum bag.

I would put the CF in the mold, epoxy, layer another sheet at a 90 degree turn (or 45, that part confused me), put more epoxy/resin, and maybe a few more sheets with the same degree rotation? Then put that in the vacuum bag, allow it to set, then use a curing oven? How would one build such a thing? Or do they sell small ones?

I've been looking up prices, and CF cloth is about 50 bucks for a square yard. This would allow for a few sheets of cloth to be used on a neck correct?

Am I starting to learn a little more now?

Greg

Angus · #18 06-03-2007, 12:18 AM

You're really, really missing the point.

And there is a lot, lot, lot more reading and research to do. Just surfing the web for a few minutes isn't going to get it.

The job won't be enough, unless you're going to waste all of it. You'd need to have a fair bit to really be able not to be money limited.

$50/sq.yd. is cheap, but it's probably junk cloth and doesn't say anything about weight, weave orientation and pattern, etc.

Greg Johnsen · #19 06-03-2007, 12:21 AM

Haha, I know that, trust me, I really do.

I'll see if I can find some books on CF and the process, and if not, I'll see if my dad (engineer turned president) knows someone that can help me.

Greg

DigthemLows · #20 06-03-2007, 11:23 AM

I agree with the others. You still need to learn the basics. Did you finish your other bass yet? The strings were off the neck at the heel, while you had over a 1/4" of wood at the nut. I have no room to talk as I'm only on my 2nd and 3rd, but man, build some more and get your planning figured out before you try and go too far. Your young, take your time. If you trying to build a name, and become a luthier, you're going to need to take time. Take time and build for fun for a while.