If You've Sold A Bass You Built....

[tycobb73]

Tell me your story. I'm thinking about starting up a bass building company. I have a section of the market I want to go after. Because I"m legally blind I won't be doing any of the actual work. I'll handle all the business issues. I have an MBA and masters in accounting + 4 years expeirence working for a start up. Also because I'm blind some of my initial costs are getting paid for. But I really want to hear from people who have been there what to expect.

[fenderhutz]

At least you won't have to worry about losing any fingers.

[lowtide]

One of the hardest things I've done is to sell one-off basses I've built. Most have sentimental value by the time I'm done too. It gets easier as time goes on because, at some point, there's too many basses hanging around. That's how it started with me.

I also think it gets tiring to produce the same bass time after time. I'd never want to be a factory like Fender and others. And you're looking at serious competition too with well over 1000 companies that I know of. It's comes down to doing what you love. For you maybe it's just business. And you might be lucky in the aspect of your being blind where you don't actually get into the creation of each bass.

When ever things come down to just money that's when things get sour for me.
And you're gonna hafta do some heavy mass production to compete in this market.

Mind if I ask what your angle is? Or what section of the market you're referring to?

[tycobb73]

I'm going to try to produce lightweight basses at a reasonable price. I live in MI so used CNC machines are easy to come by. So is cheap rent. I could rent a space to do this for $200/month. I handle all business aspects and try to get someone to help me design it and run the CNC machine. The Commission for the Blind helps blind peolple finnaically start businesses so I'll have to see what they can do for me, but they havne't balked when I've asked them for about $5000 in vison related equipment so far.

I would like to make a thin, chambered body with a long upper horn. PUsh the bridge back as far as possible. Design the headstock to help with this. 34" scale, even 5 strings. Ultralight tuners. Haven't decided on electronics yet. I'm targeting for under 7.5 lbs and $800 sale price.

I would be invovled in the design of the bass, as I have about 1/10th the vison of a normal person so it is there, but I couldn't do any of the actual construction. This idea came after I was searching for something like this myself. You can't get it without paying over $1,000 for a used one. I got lucky in that my 44-02 is under 8 lbs, but its a fluke, not the norm. People have been mixed on TBC so I would want to build something a level or 2 better than that, but not Sadowsky range. I guess I want to sit in right betwenn TBC and MPG.

[wilser]

I think that if you have all that business knowledge in your pocket you should go after different venture. especially since you won't be doing any of the actual work. The market you're going after is actually the whole chinese-taiwan-korean market that's building exactly the same thing for pennies. Make money, build a different business.

[contakt321]

I think your initial concept is great but can use some refinement.

Good:
Michigan is indeed a great market for used CMC machines and cheap labor with the Auto Industry imploding.
Lightweight bass with interesting design and concept

Needs work:
Cost. I don't think you can get it done for $800 Between man hours, hardware, pick up and wood, I don't think that price is realistic. You should research both the distribution and mark up on instruments. I suspect that it's around 100% mark up low to middle priced instruments meaning if you want the bass to sell for $800, you need to sell wholesale for $400

My thoughts:
I think you should aim for the $1,200 - $1,800 range and create a semi-boutique business model. This will give you more room for both profit and quality. You will be competing with MIA fenders, and foreign MTDs, Laklands, Valenti, Warwick, etc
Find your position. Lightweight is good, but you need to differentiate yourself. Look for holes in the market. The retro vibe is big, maybe do something inspired by some overlooked retro instruments like Vox, Fender Katana's, or go the Rumblefish route. Maybe you can create sound that has a similar sound as a Rickenbacker but looks different and/or better. Maybe a retro looking instrument that has Drakstars stock as they are very popular.

I am definitely excited to hear what you come up with and would love to be a sounding board.

[pilotjones]

It seems as though you'd be producing the rough wood parts with CNC, but you'd need to either hire luthiers (for better product) or fairly highly skilled factory workers (for lower-grade product), since you are not doing any of the build. Is this correct?

If you are going the second route, you would also need an experiened luthier / manufacturing engineer to design, set up, and maintain all processes, and to train and audit and oversee the workers. This is a perhaps overreaching assumption based on the little info you've given so far--that you do not have experience in building basses. Is this correct?

I'm not sure how many shops take the first route. Surine, maybe.

[tycobb73]

I would sell direct only to cut out the middle man, unless things got huge. I don't expect these to be sold in stores anytime soon. And these would be all produced by CNC. Like I said, used CNC's are very common here and people are wiling to work for cheap at the moment.

Who is the Korean competition? I have yet to ocme acroos many basses under 7.5 lbs coming out of Korea. I got lucky with my 44-02.

Keep this coming. I'm not going to jump into this without doing my research and hearing what you guys think.

[contakt321]

Unfortunately, selling direct will be tough.

The (cost) value in CNC machines as opposed handmaking instruments is the ability to mass produce. So by selling direct, in small volume, you are missing out on one of the best assets you have.

If you do plan on selling direct, the money you save from wholesaling will instead need to be invested in marketing and promotion. Who buys an $800 bass from someone they have never heard of, nor have they played. Advertising is an expensive way to create awareness, publicity helps, but it is of my opinion that getting instruments into hands (especially if your differentiating factor is going to be: USA Built, Low weight instruments).

Lastly, I just want to reiterate: I don't think weight is enough of a selling point. It is a factor and is important to some, but I would bet that sound, look, feel, and quality are all coming in much higher on that list.

Not criticizing at all, just sharing my opinion. Once again very interested and excited by your venture.

[RLK]

Tycobb73;

You may want to contact the folks at Reverend Guitars.
I don't know if they still manufacture here, but they're still based in Warren (around 9 mile - Van Dyke area).

They discontinued their bass line a while back.
Who knows, they might be open to an independent manufacturer taking on some risk/reward to re-kick that end of their business.

They are surely recognizable, they have a built-in following which would greatly reduce the expense of getting a name out there, and their designs can easily be made into an under-8-lb config.

Even if a "Reverend/Cobb” bass wouldn't happen, they might give you some valuable insight on starting up, suppliers, workers, etc.

[tycobb73]

Are these the makers of the Rumblefish?

[Dave Muscato]

Ty, yup.

[RLK]

Originally Posted by tycobb73

Are these the makers of the Rumblefish?

They used to be the makers of the Rumblefish.
Not sure when they stopped making basses.

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by tycobb73

(emphasis added)I would sell direct only to cut out the middle man, unless things got huge. I don't expect these to be sold in stores anytime soon. And these would be all produced by CNC. Like I said, used CNC's are very common here and people are wiling to work for cheap at the moment.

Who is the Korean competition? I have yet to ocme acroos many basses under 7.5 lbs coming out of Korea. I got lucky with my 44-02.

Keep this coming. I'm not going to jump into this without doing my research and hearing what you guys think.

Maybe I'm getting stuck on a point here, but it seems like you think CNCs make guitars. They don't. They are a tool for making the wooden body components. The other parts are generally purchased, and all assembly, including skilled areas like fretting, is by people.

You may be able to rightfully assume a low labor cost, but that is one small aspect of setting up a successful manufacturing operation. The first thing is knowledge of all aspects of the product, followed by knowledge of how to specify and source all materials for the product and knowledge of all processes to make the product, followed by knowledge of the tools to perform the processes to make the product. Only after all this do you get to plug in high or low cost of labor and materials, and of managing the labor, the materials, and the means of production.

People who whose plans go from thoughts of what market to service, to what product to provide, to how to sell the product, while not thoroughly covering all aspects of the product and how it comes to be, are doomed to failure. This happens time and again, even in business areas as abstract as internet services or banking.

[erikbojerik]

Pilot is correct. Most guys who've never built a bass think that once they have the woodworking finished, they're almost done. In reality, they're maybe halfway home.

I put 45 hours into the last bass I completed, and no more than 8 of them were tasks that could be accomplished by CNC. And I was starting from lumber in the rough, which is less expensive (even at my hourly wage...) than lumber that is already prepped to size and thickness (which you'd need to do before the CNC anyway).

The CNC won't glue or clamp anything for you, it won't fret anything nor do any fretwork, it won't sand or fill the grain, and it certainly won't apply-level-buff any finish.

It won't program itself either....