K somebody explain to me why some builders charge more for...

[Double E]

Originally Posted by reverendrally

Sorry, my bad. misunderstood.

Well the question doesn't make much sense, so I don't blame you for misunderstanding.

[tjclem]

"It takes 10 minutes to install frets and maybe another hour to do the final levelling/crowning/polish at final setup, epoxy takes days plus you need to sand this crap down and make it level, a complete pain in the ass. I don't want to do it unless I get proper compensation for it"

So true

[Phendyr_Loon]

For an unlined finger board the builder is not spending time cutting slots, so there is no charge compared to a fretted board.

For an unlined finger board, the piece is radiused and sanded smooth just as one which would get fretted. Equal time spend for both, equal charge for both.

A fretted neck will get frets pounded, pressed, or glued in then edges will get trimmed and dressed. For an epoxied surface, the edge of the finger board will get masked with tape, two liquids will get poured and mixed into a cup then poured over the fingerboard. Can we take a guess as to which of these takes more time?

A radius block and/or fine abrasives will be used to polish the epoxied surface. Likewise radius block or bar will have to be used to level the frets of the fretted neck, then time will need to be spent crowning and polishing those frets.

When you break it down, I seems to me that more time is spent slotting, installing, and finishing frets compared to pouring a two part mix over the fingerboard.

And as for someone over charging for a service in order to ensure that they won't have to do it as frequently, well that's just poor business ethics.

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by Phendyr_Loon

For an unlined finger board the builder is not spending time cutting slots, so there is no charge compared to a fretted board.

For an unlined finger board, the piece is radiused and sanded smooth just as one which would get fretted. Equal time spend for both, equal charge for both.

A fretted neck will get frets pounded, pressed, or glued in then edges will get trimmed and dressed. For an epoxied surface, the edge of the finger board will get masked with tape, two liquids will get poured and mixed into a cup then poured over the fingerboard. Can we take a guess as to which of these takes more time?

A radius block and/or fine abrasives will be used to polish the epoxied surface. Likewise radius block or bar will have to be used to level the frets of the fretted neck, then time will need to be spent crowning and polishing those frets.

When you break it down, I seems to me that more time is spent slotting, installing, and finishing frets compared to pouring a two part mix over the fingerboard.

And as for someone over charging for a service in order to ensure that they won't have to do it as frequently, well that's just poor business ethics.

Spoken by somebody that has never done it obviously

[Beej]

Took the words out from under my fingers Tom, that's exactly what I was thinking, one can't have done it and still have that opinion. The labour of epoxy is much more than fretting...

And as for someone over charging for a service in order to ensure that they won't have to do it as frequently, well that's just poor business ethics.

Actually, I think it's not so much a matter of ethics as it is just standard business practice...

[Phendyr_Loon]

What you're essentially doing is prepping and gloss coating the playing surface in leu of installing, leveling, dressing frets.

I can gloss coat the entire deck of a surfboard using epoxy resin in 30 mins.

[Beej]

Feel free to try it out and report back. I have no interest in arguing the self-evident...

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by Beej

Feel free to try it out and report back. I have no interest in arguing the self-evident...

[Jazzdogg]

Forget epoxy coating for a moment; consider an unfretted, unlined, fingerboard.

I can understand charging more if it means switching from one of the relatively inexpensive species used in fretted instruments to ebony.

The question I've always wanted to ask a seasoned builder is, which do they consider more work, a fretted bass, or a lined fretless (sans epoxy coating)?

[Phendyr_Loon]

Originally Posted by Beej

Feel free to try it out and report back. I have no interest in arguing the self-evident...

The first epoxy job I did was on a fretless MIM jazz. The disassembly, prep, and coating took me just under an hour.

I'm not arguing that the job takes time, I just don't see how one can justify charging more for it.

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by Phendyr_Loon

The first epoxy job I did was on a fretless MIM jazz. The disassembly, prep, and coating took me just under an hour.

I'm not arguing that the job takes time, I just don't see how one can justify charging more for it.

You only did one coat of epoxy? How long did it take you to re-radius the FB then sand it to a high gloss?

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Forget epoxy coating for a moment; consider an unfretted, unlined, fingerboard.

I can understand charging more if it means switching from one of the relatively inexpensive species used in fretted instruments to ebony.

The question I've always wanted to ask a seasoned builder is, which do they consider more work, a fretted bass, or a lined fretless (sans epoxy coating)?

To me a fretted FB takes longer than a lined one. Therefor I charge more for fretting.

[Phendyr_Loon]

Originally Posted by tjclem

You only did one coat of epoxy? How long did it take you to re-radius the FB then sand it to a high gloss?

One coat of epoxy, and I didn't see a need for extensive re-radiusing, which I thought it would require. After a few strokes of a fine radiusing block I used a buffer and polishing compound.

I believe this back and forth is a result of differing variables in process.

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I have done two epoxied fretless boards and many fretted boards. The epoxy process takes more time. On average, I would guess close to twice as long, obviously without counting the time to cure, which for both epoxies I've used was about a day (System 3 MirrorCoat was about 2 days and West System 105, which was fine in about 24 hours). This obviously slows down the build process for almost any builder and is going to be taken into account.

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by tjclem

To me a fretted FB takes longer than a lined one. Therefor I charge more for fretting.

Thanks. Maybe I'm not completely crazy, after all.

[Bruce Johnson]

I offer my Scroll Basses in fretted (stainless), lined fretless, and plain fretless, and I keep real accurate timeclock records on every instrument. For me, a fretted bass takes about 2.5 hours more than a plain fretless. Remember that a fretted bass also gets surface inlays. A lined fretless is about an hour more than a plain fretless. The difference between fretted and fretless isn't as much as you might think, because I spend extra time carefully leveling and smoothing a fretless fingerboard, more than I do on a fretted fingerboard.

In my case, I charge the same for fretted and fretless versions of the same model. I'm averaging the labor hours to arrive at a selling price. The total labor hours for the instrument is 60 to 100 hours, so the extra for the fretting isn't that much.

[Phil Mailloux]

Originally Posted by Phendyr_Loon

I'm not arguing that the job takes time, I just don't see how one can justify charging more for it.

First rule of business: time = money. If you're going to be doing this at a pro level that's essential. Thats why you charge more for it. If your customers are willing to pay for the extra fee where's the problem exactly? Lets look at it through a famous builder for a minute. Check out the F Bass bass builder on their site, they charge an extra $2000-2500 for a top on their basses. The top is probably worth $200 and there's maybe a few hours of work in there. Is it worth $2500 more to have a figured top on their BN models? To their customers it is or they'd be out of business right?

Yet here you are questioning my ethics because i charge more for an epoxy job, I never stated how much but that surcharge would be about $200 anyway. If i'm unethical then the whole industry is unethical my friend.

When I first started I did plenty of work without charging anything extra, I don't know how many times I spent entire weekends working on a bass design for a customer without charging A dime. At some point this gets real old if you're not compensated for it. Anyway, you need to charge what you're worth or you'll be burned out in no time and thats no good for you or your business.

If you ever end up selling your basses (if you're a builder) you'll get me at some point.

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by Phil Mailloux

First rule of business: time = money. If you're going to be doing this at a pro level that's essential. Thats why you charge more for it. If your customers are willing to pay for the extra fee where's the problem exactly? Lets look at it through a famous builder for a minute. Check out the F Bass bass builder on their site, they charge an extra $2000-2500 for a top on their basses. The top is probably worth $200 and there's maybe a few hours of work in there. Is it worth $2500 more to have a figured top on their BN models? To their customers it is or they'd be out of business right?

Yet here you are questioning my ethics because i charge more for an epoxy job, I never stated how much but that surcharge would be about $200 anyway. If i'm unethical then the whole industry is unethical my friend.

When I first started I did plenty of work without charging anything extra, I don't know how many times I spent entire weekends working on a bass design for a customer without charging A dime. At some point this gets real old if you're not compensated for it. Anyway, you need to charge what you're worth or you'll be burned out in no time and thats no good for you or your business.

If you ever end up selling your basses (if you're a builder) you'll get me at some point.

Well said