new moldable, liquid wood?

[PZapdos]

imagine the crazy shapes you could make using this stuff:

or more realistically, bring the price of lower end wooden basses down. i wonder what its acoustic properties are?

http://dornob.com/liquid-wood-fantas...stic-material/

[Stereo Joe]

That is really cool!

[Angus]

Well, there is nothing wood about it- it's just plastic. Tons of companies have used materials like this- Ibanez and Cort/Curbow come to mind.

Don't confuse it for a wood product- it's nothing new, either. Just a normal plastic polymer.

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Angus

Well, there is nothing wood about it- it's just plastic. Tons of companies have used materials like this- Ibanez and Cort/Curbow come to mind.

Don't confuse it for a wood product- it's nothing new, either. Just a normal plastic polymer.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you:
"Lingin (sp) (an often-discarded element of regular wood) is combined with natural resins, flax and fibers that can be injected into molds and form extremely complex, precision-shaped objects."

[__HM__]

Yeah, it's definitely not plastic, Angus. Did you even read the article?

[Angus]

Originally Posted by __HM__

Yeah, it's definitely not plastic, Angus. Did you even read the article?

Yes, I did. Did you read it thoroughly? Have you ever seen the material before? I have. To make those fancy molded shapes, it's mixed with a straight plastic matrix to be able to hold it's form stiffly. To call it "wood" is a stretch- it has lignin, but wood is primarily cellulose. And even then, being made of cellulose or lignin doesn't make it wood.

So yes, by definition it is still a type of plastic, even if some of the matrix is made from bio materials.

That website doesn't even name the biopolymer correctly- it's "lignin", not "lingin".

[pilotjones]

Lignin is the gummy part of wood that is discarded in paper making, in favor of the predominant cellulose portion, which is used.

Using lignin in your blended polymer doesn't necessarily make it antything like wood.

Wood is a polymer, not only made mostly of these two elements, but having a complex, open, ordered structure that, so far, can only be formed by living organisms (e.g. trees).

Listen to Angus.

[__HM__]

Huh.. If you guys say so.

[Essen]

Wood or not, how would it sound?
I know using plastic(or whatever this is) must seem like blasphemy, but is it really that different from using carbon fiber?

[__HM__]

Well, Ibanez and Dan Armstrong and BC Rich make clear instruments, made out of acryllic, I believe. I wouldn't imagine a plastic instrument wouldn't sound much different than that.

[Beej]

Here's more info from the horse's mouth: http://www.tecnaro.de/english/arbofo...ction=arboform

[NineSpine]

I think the disconnect here is that some people are relying on the technical definition of plastic while others are relying on a more "common" definition of plastic. In other words, in scientific terms this is pretty much just plastic but in layman terms it's a little different.

[Rodger Bryan]

Originally Posted by Essen

Wood or not, how would it sound?
I know using plastic(or whatever this is) must seem like blasphemy, but is it really that different from using carbon fiber?

CF rods used in instruments have longer fibers that are oriented in the same direction along the length of the rod. These materials have a specific job to do when they are used in MI construction- most commonly, to assist the wood in handling the tension of the strings. If carbon fibers were added to the mix as described previously and then extruded into bars or injection-molded into a neck shape, you would probably end up with a material with a lower tensile strength (and elasticity) than a piece of maple of the same dimension.

As a material for the body, my only concerns would be if the weight would be acceptable and if the cost would be prohibitive for the independent builder.

[Larry Davis]

From very early research I did on acrylic impregnation of wood:

THE WOOD
CELLULOSE: The three major building blocks of wood are cellulose, hemicelluloses, and lignin. Cellulose is a polymer (many units) made up of repeating units of glucose. There may be 10,000 glucose units in the final polymer (Figure 1).
The cellulose polymer in wood forms long chains that bond with one another by a weak chemical linkage called a hydrogen bond. It is formed from the connection of the -OH of one chain with an O- of its neighbor, -OH...O-. These bound chains twist in space to make up ribbon-like sheets of material. These sheets are used as the basic construction material for a variety of tubular structures that run longitudinal to the trees axis. These serve as support columns and/or carry water in living wood from the roots to the growing tips and return newly synthesized carbohydrates downward for storage. The carbohydrates are made from atmospheric water (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2) in the leaves by the action of sunlight on a molecule called chlorophyll.

Hardwoods have longitudinal "vessels" that transport solutions, "fibers" that perform the mechanical support role, and "parenchyma" for storage. Hardwood vessels are 0.15-1.5 mm long, and 20-300 micron in diameter. Hardwood fibers average about 2 mm in length and 20 micron in diameter. Hardwood parenchyma are brick-shaped cells. These may be longitudinal and/or occur along radial lines (Figure 2).

At a macroscopic level we can think of vessels as closed tubes of cellulose having pores at each end that allow fluid to pass from one perforated tube to another. If many of these tubes are bundled together longitudinally in the tree trunk a pathway exists for fluid flow up and down. Imagine a bunch of soda straws glued together, all pinched off, but with small pin holes at each end. Some of the cellulose polymer areas are very ordered, and are termed crystalline. These segments are quite strong. Other areas are less ordered, and are called amorphous.

LIGNIN: As the tree grows between the bark and the sapwood each season, some of the carbohydrates are used to create another member of the composite, lignin. Lignins begin with a simple chemical substance derived from phenylpropane, phenylalanine. Phenylalanine can be converted to 4-hydroxyphenylalanine, tyrosine, by plants or man. Phenylalanine and tyrosine are important aminoacids in man.

In wood, as the process continues, a very complex polymer is produced made up of many phenylpropane units originally substituted at the 4 position with HO- and at the 3 and/or 5 positions with CH3O groups (Figure 1). Lignins with a majority of 3-methoxy substitution are found in softwoods, while hardwoods have a mixture of 3-methoxy and 3, 5-dimethoxy substitution. There may be 1,000 phenylpropane units of one kind or another in the final polymer network. The function of lignin in wood is to provide another supporting structure, and to help the wood repel attacks from degrading organisms.

HEMICELLULOSES: The last major components in wood are called hemicelluloses. They are short polymer chains made up of a variety of carbohydrates. In hardwoods, the most common non-glucose carbohydrate found is called xylose. There might be 100-200 monomer units in the final polymer. Hemicelluloses play an important role at the interface between cellulose structures and the lignin portion of wood. Hemicelluloses are amorphous. Some theories suggest that small circular lignin polymer chains bonded periodically to the hemicelluloses encourage the surrounding cellulose chains to become more crystalline.

The normal cellulose/lignin/hemicellulose ratios vary from wood to wood. Typical ratios are 2.2:1:1.5 for hardwoods. Tropical hardwoods are usually more heavily ligninized. The three components together form a composite which provides strength and flexibility to the wood.

THE COMPOSITE: Cellulose occurs as long, threadlike fibers (microfibrils). These are imbedded in a matrix of hemicellulose and lignin. The assembly is just like fiber-glass imbedded in resins that are used to repair automobile body dents- a composite material. The microfibrils consist of the outer original primary wall (Figure 3), and three inner layers of secondary wall (S1, S2, and S3 (the innermost)). The three secondary walls have their microfibrils oriented at different biases with respect to the long axis, roughly like these lines; /, |, \. Biasing adds strength; e.g., the belting in tires, or your abdominal muscles

[Muaguana]

Originally Posted by Essen

Wood or not, how would it sound?
I know using plastic(or whatever this is) must seem like blasphemy, but is it really that different from using carbon fiber?

http://www.tecnaro.de/english/instru...ction=arboform

"The acoustic quality of ARBOFORM® instruments has been found to be excellent by a number of experts."

Well, I can't argue with "a number of experts," can you? It must sound awesome!

[pasta4lnch]

I'm curious to see how it looks and feels up close - might be cool for parts, trim and binding etc

[Essen]

Originally Posted by Muaguana

http://www.tecnaro.de/english/instru...ction=arboform

"The acoustic quality of ARBOFORM® instruments has been found to be excellent by a number of experts."

Well, I can't argue with "a number of experts," can you? It must sound awesome!

I would love to see the instruments the "experts" tested.

As long as it's cheap(which it probably isn't), and sounds better than the baloon basses on youtube
It'll be hard to beat that lego one though.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by NineSpine

I think the disconnect here is that some people are relying on the technical definition of plastic while others are relying on a more "common" definition of plastic. In other words, in scientific terms this is pretty much just plastic but in layman terms it's a little different.

Yes, and it is this disconnect that they are relying on to convince a layman consumer that it is functionally different than plastic- that it is somehow more wood than plastic, or acts more like wood. None of this would be true, obviously.

It's marketing.

[Muaguana]

Originally Posted by Essen

I would love to see the instruments the "experts" tested.

As long as it's cheap(which it probably isn't), and sounds better than the baloon basses on youtube
It'll be hard to beat that lego one though.

I'd imagine these would have a lot less neck dive than the LEGO basses/guitars, but I could be wrong.

[mulchor]

hmm... seems like this is to plastic as rayon is to polyester