New project idea. Lefty neck for a righty.

[ampegfuzz]

I have been searching for hours now and no real straight answer. I am thinking about putting together a right hand bass with a left hand neck. I want to tune it BEAD, but does the lefty neck help the tension of the B string or not. Might still do it anyway, thinking of doing a White p bass with a black guard and a bound and blocked maple lefty neck. Any help or insight would be awesome.

[mikeyswood]

I have been thinking about building a Jimmy Bass.

Just the look in my experience. If I am not mistaken, this is also a heated topic.

A tip - make sure that your B string will be long enough to cover the distance to the tuner. One of my reverse headstocks requires super long scale strings

[ampegfuzz]

yeah i've been looking and looking but no real straight answer. Yeah i have also thought about the string length prob, indeed longer the better. Been watching your warlock cant wait for the end result.

[ehque]

Originally Posted by ampegfuzz

I want to tune it BEAD, but does the lefty neck help the tension of the B string or not.

Not at all.

In fact, a shorter nut-to-tuner distance should make the string feel stiffer. There is no change in tension either way.

[SpamBot]

^ +1. Think it through again.

[ampegfuzz]

Think it through? I Dont understand what you mean by that Spambot. Fodera does it on some of their basses i wonder the reason if it doesn't help the tension any. Just curious.

[mikeyswood]

I am with you. These two may not have experience. Reverse headstocks have been made by Fender; most notably on the Jimmy Strat.

Perhaps some of the vets here can add their wisdom. My experience is only differing in looks. Some of my string sets cheat a few inches off of the E so that is why I mentioned that aspect.

[Rodent]

why does any company promote a reverse headstock? simple - sales results from a marketing campaign

here's a simple rule:

scale length (the length of the string between the two witness points) + string diameter + tension = note pitch

(i.e. a string of a given diameter in place between two witness points of a given scale length and tightened to a given tension will have a specific pitch)

change one or more of the three factors and you pitch goes up or down. what happens outside of the witness points does not change the string's tension - it's really that simple


there are other factors (like the string stretching when plucked or bent) that may or may not be impacted by the design outside of the witness points and/or the material properties of the string itself, and these factors my contribute to the 'feel' of the strings when played

all the best,

R

[pilotjones]

Mike Pope, who worked with Fodera on the feature, gave a reply about a year ago. To paraphrase, perhaps imperfectly, he acknowledged that the extra length does not alter the fundamental string tension. (And this will be supported by anyone who has taken first-year university physics.) He said that it resulted in his opinion in an improvement in tone and/or feel (you'll have to look up the post for particulars).

[Whiskeyneck]

First post on the forums-lurked for a while- and wanted to post some thoughts here on this subject. Humbly laying down some ideas to get knowledge!

Talking about witness points-if we call the primary witness points the nut and the saddle, which determine the scale length of the string, we also have secondary points of where each string ends, which would be the tuner and the back of the bridge or body. On Fenders or Fender-inspired, we also have a string retainer in many cases which acts as a witness point. My point is this. Anything and everything in the path of the string impacts it's overall vibration characteristic, therefore impacting the final sound. From the guitar world, an example come to mind. Jimmy Page's Double neck EDS-1275- the strings do not end directly behind the saddles, they extend. The audible result is a string sound that has longer vibration length, which, in theory, should add more harmonic content. From what I've read, Gibson did this on purpose for this reason. Another example is a bass that has strings that go through the body instead of ending at the back of the bridge. Play 2 P-Basses that are identical woods and p'ups, and the one that goes through the body will sound different from one that ends in the top.

So, I believe the key word is "Feel"... as in how the reverse head stock makes the strings feel. Break angle at the bridge and behind the nut influence this, etc.. etc.... but I believe, in the humble experiences I've had, that it does make a difference. There's a builder working at the Fender custom shop- built a reverse headstock bass for the bassist of Jimmy Eat World, and it made his BEAD tuning come to life, increased tuning stability, and the like. Forgive me if I've not used correct scientific terminology, but if Roy Buchanan could bend a harmonic a minor third behind the nut, then to me, there's plenty to be said for the design of the headstock and how it subtly influences things.

Peace, and glad to be aboard!
WN

[Rodent]

first-off, let me extend a hearty welcome to the LC on TB!

we also have secondary points of where each string ends, which would be the tuner and the back of the bridge or body. On Fenders or Fender-inspired, we also have a string retainer in many cases which acts as a witness point.

the witness points are solely the nut and saddle, and not all of the various other places where a string contacts other hardware

the string cannot have a 'longer vibration length' beyond these two points

all the best,

R

[mikeyswood]

Originally Posted by Rodent

first-off, let me extend a hearty welcome to the LC on TB!

the string cannot have a 'longer vibration length' beyond these two points
R

Another welcome to LC.

Rodent; I think that he is speaking of harmonc vibration which does exist along the entire path of the substrate (sting). I may have to revisit my physics, but I am pretty sure that the whole tone ends at the contact points (nut, bridge, frets) but the harmonics chase along the entire length....

Thinking out loud.

[Whiskeyneck]

Originally Posted by Rodent

first-off, let me extend a hearty welcome to the LC on TB!

the witness points are solely the nut and saddle, and not all of the various other places where a string contacts other hardware

the string cannot have a 'longer vibration length' beyond these two points

all the best,

R

Thanks! Again, I'm coming to this from the position of questioning things I've read from various makers/luthiers previously, so please know that I'm not trying to contradict you, only to understand.

To understand your point of view, does anything behind the nut, or behind the saddle influence the vibrations/tone of the instrument?

Thanks!
WN

[jro]

I've been curious about this as well. It makes some sense that the distance from the nut and bridge saddle to the anchor points would affect overall string tension. The string slides over both of these points and the tension is distributed over a longer portion of the string. How this affects the tension between the witness points I have yet to think through though.

One thing I have tried is stringing two E strings on my jazz in the E and D positions to see if the difference was noticeable. It was a very unscientific experiment so I won't say anymore than there was a difference. It would take cutting the nut the same and setting the bridge up for all 4 strings and a measuring device or two to really tell if there is a noticeable difference.

[Whiskeyneck]

Originally Posted by mikeyswood

Rodent; I think that he is speaking of harmonc vibration which does exist along the entire path of the substrate (sting).

I am pretty sure that the whole tone ends at the contact points (nut, bridge, frets) but the harmonics chase along the entire length....

Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. Take the Gibson example, where they were trying to get better harmonic "content", for a lack of a better term, without changing the feel or scale length of the guitar. At the end of the day, I think it does change the feel somewhat, but that is the principle of the thought, at least!

Thanks for the welcome, love good conversation!
WN

[pilotjones]

Originally Posted by mikeyswood

I may have to revisit my physics, but I am pretty sure that the whole tone ends at the contact points (nut, bridge, frets) but the harmonics chase along the entire length....

Thinking out loud.

Nope. Whatever normal action takes place between the witness points, effects all harmonics (fundamental included). Whatever non-idealized action may possibly take place beyond witness points, if shown to be true, would also affect all harmonics (including the fundamental).

There is some possibility that there is some rocking of a thick string at a sharp-edged witness point that would let twisting motion propagate past the point. This shouldn't really happen at a nut at all, where the string is very nicely choked by passing through a channel. And likewise passing around the barrel of a Fender bridge. Going string-thru-body would cause a greater wrap around the barrel, increasing the isolation of the sounding string from any crap going on between the saddle and the string end.

Here's some more reading.

Overall string length and tension. (BTW I think Ray followed up with an experiment that proved this, not that it hadn't already been proven hundreds of years before.)
using a left handed neck to extend the B tension?
Fodera: 34" w/ Extended B, or 35" Regular B???
does tuner hole placement affect tone?
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...87#post1209287

Cheers.

[ampegfuzz]

Thanks to everyone for the info. Still thinking about building a jimi bass anyway just to be a weirdo. All these cool ideas for this project keep coming into my head i need to sort them out.