Nitro VS Waterborne acrylic VS Waterborne poly?

[bassman74]

Can you help me with this one. I want a finish that will last long and still let the bass vibrate without turning yellow too much with years.

here's what i've been told:

Nitrocellulose: Nice thin finish that let the bass vibrate, crack and shrink with years, turn yellow with years.

Waterborne Acrylic: environment friendly, water clear looks. Durable but don't know about if it alter your bass vibration.

Waterborne Polyester: environment friendly, water clear looks, Durable but don't let the bass vibrate.

Is this true?

Hepl would be appreciated...

Thanks guys

[wilser]

if you're building solid bodied instruments, my advice would be not to choose a finish based on 'how will it affect tone', but rather how you want it to look and the level of protection you need.

with that said, I recently switched to a 4 layer finishing system. Shellac sealer, Acrylic filler, polyester urethane build coats, acrylic lacquer top coat. All waterbased.

But hey! that's just me!

[Pneuma]

Wilser- just curious, how does the waterbased laquer compare to nitro for wear purposes? Say someone was wanting the "durability" of nitro so that they could ensure some relicing over the years. Is the waterbased pretty much the same?

Thanks,

P.

[wilser]

Originally Posted by Pneuma

Wilser- just curious, how does the waterbased laquer compare to nitro for wear purposes? Say someone was wanting the "durability" of nitro so that they could ensure some relicing over the years. Is the waterbased pretty much the same?

Thanks,

P.

I haven't been using waterbased long enough to know first hand, but the builders that switched to it agree that it compares very favorably. Most of the problems users have (and the reason they complain about it) it's because of improper application. This thing has to be applied in thinner coats than regular solvent based finishes and also each coat has to cure for 1-2 hrs before the next one is applied. With this kind of schedule, the finish should be great. Also, I want a finish that is harder than waterbased or solvent based lacquer, that's why I'm gonna do my build coats with waterbased poly now.

btw, I don't think nitro has any 'durability' characteristic. It's just very easy to repair invisibly. Sure, it's a nice finish, but it's not as durable as polyester urethanes (water or solvent based). Also, waterbased lacquer is as easy to repair as solvent based.

[Pneuma]

Originally Posted by wilser

btw, I don't think nitro has any 'durability' characteristic. It's just very easy to repair invisibly. Sure, it's a nice finish, but it's not as durable as polyester urethanes (water or solvent based). Also, waterbased lacquer is as easy to repair as solvent based.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant. It's key durability aspect is it's lack. It wears quickly, and in a pleasing manner (for a lot of people).


Thanks!

P.

[bassman74]

Ok, let'S say that i want best of both world. I'm maybe wrong but i think that Nitro finish that let the bass vibrate the most. But it is not durable a turn yellow with time.

Is there a finish that first let the instrument "breathe" or vibrate which is not fragile.

I've been told that polyester finish alter the tone of your bass because it's so hard it doesn't let the bass vibrate, is it true????

thanks again

[wilser]

as far as I'm concerned, the finish does not have any effect on the tone of a solid body instrument.

whoever is making these 'let the wood vibrate' statement is making assumptions and repeating whatever they've heard supposed 'authorities' talk about.

people, please! I say apply the finish that you NEED. If you want to protect your instrument and make it look glossy, apply thick poly. If on the otherhand you want the grain of your bass to be visible and the natural feel of it, use an oil/wax combination.

of course, this is my opinion and I'm sure others disagree.

[Jazzdogg]

Whenever I hear people talk about the way finishes allow the wood to breathe and/or vibrate freely in conjunction with slab-bodied instruments I have to scratch my head and wonder how such piffle could ever be believed or perpetuated. The folks who espouse such "beliefs" certainly haven't spent decades working with wood and finishes, nor have they been properly educated in wood technology or finishing.

Originally Posted by wilser

as far as I'm concerned, the finish does not have any effect on the tone of a solid body instrument.

whoever is making these 'let the wood vibrate' statement is making assumptions and repeating whatever they've heard supposed 'authorities' talk about.

people, please! I say apply the finish that you NEED. If you want to protect your instrument and make it look glossy, apply thick poly. If on the otherhand you want the grain of your bass to be visible and the natural feel of it, use an oil/wax combination.

of course, this is my opinion and I'm sure others disagree.

[bassman74]

First: i'm new to all this. I'm assembling basses for fun. I use to paint bicycle before. I just don't know nothing about wood or how paint affect wood.

I've read somewhere that finish alter vibration of the body, that everybody should use oil/wax or at last Nitro finish. Who am i to say he's wrong?

If i started this thread it's because i use Talkbass as an info source. I haven't read these things here but somewhere else on the net. So i'm asking you guys for help.

If i clearly understand what have been told here before, on a slab body, i can do any finish i want without having any effect on tone or vibration.

In this case, which finish is easier to apply and polish, which one looks better for natural finish? Which finish is better for acoustic instruments?

Thank you very much to all of you for your time an patience, can't wait for your answers.

Francois

[Musiclogic]

well, I'll jump in on this one. Any good quality finish, will protect the wood to a point. It's more of how you take care of that finish and the instrument as to how durable it will be.
Polyester based urethanes are very tough, as is Acrylic Lacquer. Waterborne versions are usually close to the same. Nitrocellulose lacquer is like a Fender Bass; the accepted standard. It's not necessarilly better for any reason other than the vintage heads, and "holy tone grail seekers" demand it. I have found all finishes to be quite equal in careful hands, and equally as destructable in careless hands.

Nitrocellulose Lacquer degrades over time due to it's organic base, shellac, varnish, and spar urethane do the same thing.

Waterborne finishes have not been around long enough to have a discernable test bencmark due to the constant improvements being made to the finishes. They are getting much better, but, no one will really know the durability of said finishes until enough time has passed. Everything about Waterbornes is still conjecture, until a benchmark is set.

As for my experience, I use Nitro, and Waterborne, oil and wax when requested, and they all finish well.

[Jazzdogg]

Francois:

A good place to start is with some information on basic wood finishing. It's hard to beat Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" for demystifying the products and processes.

Additionally, Jeff Jewitt's "Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing" is very good and and is augmented by the author's website: www.homesteadfinishing.com

When selecting finishes your basic concerns are likely to be few:

1. Appearance: color, sheen level, etc.

2. Method of application, equipment required, and degree of difficulty. I'd suggest you select finishes that are easy to use, require no complicated equipment or methods, and are relatively easy to learn and repair.

3. Durability. Keep in mind that the most "bulletproof" finishes also tend to be among the most difficult to repair. Finishes such as oil and shellac, while not nearly as tough as some modern factory-applied finishes, can be far easier to apply and repair.

The finishing products industry artfully combines marketing and obfuscation; claims of so-called miracle products that produce beautiful results straight out of the can are mostly marketing BS: Caveat emptor.

For best results, I strongly encourage you to obtain wood (the same species your bass is made of) and perfect your finishing techniques on test pieces before you attempt to finish your bass. If you document the products and processes you use as you go, you'll be in a far better position to figure out what worked and what didn't - and we'll be in a far better position to help you.

If you can tell us more about the specific goals and constraints of your particular finishing project, we'll be in a far better position to help.

Originally Posted by bassman74

First: i'm new to all this. I'm assembling basses for fun. I use to paint bicycle before. I just don't know nothing about wood or how paint affect wood.

I've read somewhere that finish alter vibration of the body, that everybody should use oil/wax or at last Nitro finish. Who am i to say he's wrong?

If i started this thread it's because i use Talkbass as an info source. I haven't read these things here but somewhere else on the net. So i'm asking you guys for help.

If i clearly understand what have been told here before, on a slab body, i can do any finish i want without having any effect on tone or vibration.

In this case, which finish is easier to apply and polish, which one looks better for natural finish? Which finish is better for acoustic instruments?

Thank you very much to all of you for your time an patience, can't wait for your answers.

Francois

[bassman74]

I have access to a spray boot. Ability to repair is not important to me. If you ding or dent your bass it just shows your using it or that your not carefull.....LOL!

I want to use transtint dyes and sometimes woodfillers.
I'm looking for an glossy finish that will resist weather changes and sweat.
I want a non-yellowing finish too...
I want it to look natural, being able to see clearly the wood grain.
The less toxic possible for the person who use it and for environment too!!!

Those are my goals but i'm i expecting too much from a finish?

thanks again

[wilser]

Originally Posted by bassman74

I have access to a spray boot. Ability to repair is not important to me. If you ding or dent your bass it just shows your using it or that your not carefull.....LOL!

I want to use transtint dyes and sometimes woodfillers.
I'm looking for an glossy finish that will resist weather changes and sweat.
I want a non-yellowing finish too...
I want it to look natural, being able to see clearly the wood grain.
The less toxic possible for the person who use it and for environment too!!!

Those are my goals but i'm i expecting too much from a finish?

thanks again

go to http://www.targetcoatings.com and get a gallon of their super clear 9000 poly. it's what you're after 100%

[bassman74]

Is it what you are using?
Thanks

[wilser]

I'm using one of these two combinations:


1. amber shellac from target (for color and figure depth), grain filler from target (because epoxy doesn't stick well to shellac), poly from target (for build coats), lacquer from target (for repairability)


2. epoxy from system three (it builds and fills), lacquer from target

I was using KTM9 from grafted coatings before but recent tests with target coatings made me switch.

you should know that to get a glossy surface one of the most important things to do is to get the surface flat and free from grain indentations. This is the reason why you should spend lots of time to make sure the filler stage is well done.

[Musiclogic]

+1 Will....exactly why I use Target USL and Poly 9000, as we have discussed in the past....LOL