nomenclature: it's a bark inCLUsion not a bark inCURsion

[Rodent]

I've started filling the voids/bark incursions.

as explained to me years ago by the "wise wood one" who posts here on occasion ... technically, it's a bark inclusion, not incursion


fwiw dictionary.com lists the definiton of incursion as "a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, esp. a sudden one; raid"


I see this incorrect terminology used quite a bit here on TB and a couple other building forums (and let's not even get started on all the incorrect terminology used by numerous fly-by-night wood resellers on eBay), so this post is by no means meant to single anybody out (hence why I posted this in a new thread)

all the best,

R

[Beej]

I have to say I always find your posts interesting, Rodent.

I know I've been guilty of the above mentioned technical infraction myself from time to time. Mostly because in my tenure as a carpenter, I regularly heard incursion as opposed to inclusion.

Incursion, while holding the appearance of accuracy, is indeed technically incorrect. Incursion does have other disambiguated meanings as well that might appear to give it application in this context, as it can simply mean something that is foreign to a structure imposed into a structure.

Inclusion is technically correct though, because the bark grows on the outside of the tree and therefore when its present, its presence is inclusive and not incursive - i.e. bark sheaths the wood, it does not intrude upon that which it sheaths.

On a related point of note however, a knot could technically be called an incursion as it originates from behind the layers of wood from the centre of the tree. This too could turn into a topic which fosters enmity if one isn't careful.

I bet a lot of people are going to read this and think we've been smoking too much bc bud and spend too much time philosophizing poetic about microinanities, however I for one, really enjoy such sojourns. Thanks for the thoughts...

[scottyd]

To each his own, I know your posting this because of my thread. I use the term incursion and so do many other woodworkers and wood sellers I guess were all wrong...

[Rodent]

hey Scotty - like I said, no finger pointing at anybody here by me. if you do a search you'll find I was once equally guilty of using the incorrect nomenclature as well

thanks to a very colorful discussion with Larry Davis about three months after the start of the second Iraq war, I'll never again forget which is the proper term and which is not

all the best,

R

[Rodent]

Originally Posted by Beej

I bet a lot of people are going to read this and think we've been smoking too much bc bud and spend too much time philosophizing poetic about microinanities, however I for one, really enjoy such sojourns. Thanks for the thoughts...

it's amazing what cleaning up the shop after completing several basses will do ... days of intense focus give way to mindless sweeping, vacuuming, and reorganizing (putting all the tools away) ... it was actually a BM set of burl maple that initially got me to thinking of this, and then I read another post this morning that reminded me of my earlier thoughts


I'm off to see if I can snap a couple images of the new wood that's come into the shop so I can get it posted on the website ... a particular BM Amboyna set that arrived last week is causing me to lose sleep at night

all the best,

R

[Beej]

Originally Posted by scottyd

To each his own, I know your posting this because of my thread. I use the term incursion and so do many other woodworkers and wood sellers I guess were all wrong...

In my view (and I doubt I'm alone) your phenomenal skill, creativity and attention to detail more than makes up for this tiny indiscretion. In the end, it doesn't really matter at all, what matters most (to me anyway) is how one applies oneself to one's craft(s). You sir, are a jaw-dropping example of a craftsman (again, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this estimation!)...

[pilotjones]

Hmmm... if we end it with a few repetitive posts, we can have a recursive conclusion.

[Beej]

Originally Posted by pilotjones

Hmmm... if we end it with a few repetitive posts, we can have a recursive conclusion.

I lol'd...

[Larry Davis]

Originally Posted by scottyd

To each his own, I know your posting this because of my thread. I use the term incursion and so do many other woodworkers and wood sellers I guess were all wrong...

Eliminating obstinacy the short answer would still be...YES!!!!

[scottyd]

Originally Posted by Rodent

I see this incorrect terminology used quite a bit here on TB and a couple other building forums (and let's not even get started on all the incorrect terminology used by numerous fly-by-night wood resellers on eBay)

Originally Posted by Larry Davis

Eliminating obstinacy the short answer would still be...YES!!!!

Well, the guys that I actually BUY wood from call them INCURSIONS and I know exactly what they mean when they use that term, if they are using some kind of wrong terminology I'm OK with that! Call them "fly-by-night wood resellers" if you like my guys have always treated me right and will continue to get my business. (and no they are not all on Ebay)

Here's Dictionary.coms definition for Inclusion,http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inclusion
Is that any better a noun to describe a bark void? Sounds to me like personal preference, which is FINE and isn't a problem until someone insists on pushing that preference on to someone else.

[Larry Davis]

Originally Posted by scottyd

Here's Dictionary.coms definition for Inclusion,http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inclusion
Is that any better a noun to describe a bark void?

A void is not an inclusion.... An inclusion has substance such as gas, liquid, solid, etc. Heck, you can call a bark pocket a songbird and the world will little notice....

No need to get your neck hairs up...

[scottyd]

Originally Posted by Larry Davis

A void is not an inclusion.... An inclusion has substance such as gas, liquid, solid, etc. Heck, you can call a bark pocket a songbird and the world will little notice....

No need to get your neck hairs up...

If indeed a void is not an inclusion then what's the point of this thread?

I think I'll just call them VOIDS from now on, that way it doesn't ruffle any ones feathers... Last thing I want is any of my TB family distraught over my terminology.

Trust me Larry, it takes a whole heck of lot more then this to get my hairs up.

[Rodent]

Originally Posted by scottyd

then what's the point of this thread?

as I've noted previously, this is an EDUCATIONAL thread focused on wood product terminology. it is specifically targeted at identifying the correct nomenclature as being "inCLUsion" and not "inCURsion" (the latter being both incorrect and commonly used)

I've also noted previously the origins of my posting, the fact that this is NOT pointing fingers at anybody, and that I am also guilty of incorrect terminology usage in the (now increasingly distant) past


one great thing about most woodworkers, guitar builders, and especially BASS luthiers is that we generally embrace all levels of learning - from basic woodworking skills, to power tools, and even on how we can more accurately communicate with each other. it's what makes being a bass builder so great - we have community and share quite openly with each other (the same cannot so readily be said of those groups who work other trades, as keeping secrets tightly held is the key to operating a viable business) communities (social and trade) are built around common nomenclature usage, hence my original post to this thread

when we cease to learn we become stagnant in our thinking, designs, and delivered product. learning involves recognizing and adopting correction in cases where an error in methodologies, nomenclature, and/or perception has occurred.

so what is this thread about? it's about growing our ability to accurately communicate the craft that we all love. if we disconnect on our terminology, focus is lost and mistakes can easily happen ... if I am carving and ask you to hand me a "hammer" (expecting you to hand me a wooden mallet) and you hand me a "hammer" (handing me a 8oz ballpeen) it's obvious that we've needlessly miscommunicated, and that miscommunication is rooted in our poor nomenclature usage.


all the best,

R

[erikbojerik]

These things happen all the time in mineralogy - and in mineralogy, an "inclusion" is completely surrounded by the host material in 3D - all dimensions (which is impossible to determine from a 2D slice unless you have all the sister slices at your disposal).

When it is not, it is called an "embayment" - think of a deep dent in the material that is not completely enclosed.

That said, I would say if you have a bit of bark where you don't want it, feel free to regard it as a hostile presence in your wood and call it an incursion if it makes you feel better.

[Larry Davis]

Originally Posted by erikbojerik

When it is not, it is called an "embayment" - think of a deep dent in the material that is not completely enclosed.

That said, I would say if you have a bit of bark where you don't want it, feel free to regard it as a hostile presence in your wood and call it an incursion if it makes you feel better.

Here, we call that buckeye

[scottyd]

Originally Posted by erikbojerik

That said, I would say if you have a bit of bark where you don't want it, feel free to regard it as a hostile presence in your wood and call it an incursion if it makes you feel better.

On the last 3 basses I've built I would have to say that the voids are indeed a hostile presence! Theres no welcome feeling working them that's for sure.

[Mikey R]

Originally Posted by Rodent

if I am carving and ask you to hand me a "hammer" (expecting you to hand me a wooden mallet) and you hand me a "hammer" (handing me a 8oz ballpeen) it's obvious that we've needlessly miscommunicated, and that miscommunication is rooted in our poor nomenclature usage.

The difference here is that, if I say incursion, you will still know what Im talking about.

Language changes over time. Provided we all know what the other is saying then its all good - you guys all mispronounce "schedule" all the time but over this side of the Atlantic we still know what your talking about.

[scottyd]

Originally Posted by Mikey R

The difference here is that, if I say incursion, you will still know what Im talking about.

Language changes over time. Provided we all know what the other is saying then its all good - you guys all mispronounce "schedule" all the time but over this side of the Atlantic we still know what your talking about.

Just curious, how do you pronounce it where you're located?

[T2W]

the same way you guys pronounce 'shore' , basically like shedule

[Mikey R]

Originally Posted by T2W

the same way you guys pronounce 'shore' , basically like shedule

Yep, just like that.