Non-Bass related question (it aint a guitar either)

T2W · #1 08-10-2008, 06:22 AM

Hi guys,
I thought of putting this up in canadianwoodworking.com but... well.... I didnt. I got 32 windows to build for a restaurant, first woods that come to mind are obviously Mahogany and Spanish Cedar since they are commonly used in windows due to its stability, but the bill will be high for 32... so I guess Ill use pine (which is also quite commonly used) only thing im wondering is if there's a way to seal it before painting, so to not get knots showing under the paint. Would Schellac (sp?) work? Sorry this might not be in the right place, but I know you guys have an answer ! Ill be doing some progress on the basses this week, im finally out of the tool-less, apartment life !! Thanks in advance!!!
-Mario-

Nelson Guitars · #2 08-10-2008, 09:53 AM

I would not recommend pine for any outdoor application. No mater how well you paint it some moisture is bound to get to the wood. Water, sugar (in the pine) and the right temperature is all you need for rot to occur. Pine is notorious as a wood that easily rots. The cedars are low sugar and have tanin and an acidity level that keeps the mold from getting a foot hold. Not sure about mahogany but I do know it is not prone to rotting the way pine is.

The big window and door manufacturers do use pine, but they also clad the exterior surface with metal or vinyl. They have tried many different sealers, paints and treatments over the years without success.

What about fir? It has been used successfully for this before. Kind of hard to deal with on the finer details though since the early wood and the late wood splinter off easily and don't sand at the same rate.

Greg N

eleonn · #3 08-10-2008, 10:04 AM

Hi Mario. Good to know that you are going to jump on your projects again. Don't know if this will help but down here is usually is used any high-medium density wood but weather here is not as tough as in US/Canada. Cheep woods like poplar are not Ok for windows there?

scottyd · #4 08-10-2008, 10:52 AM

Redwood for outdoor applications can't be beat. Pine will rot years before redwood.

T2W · #5 08-10-2008, 11:27 AM

Ill look into Cedar but the price ain't the same, I didn't know about the redwood though... Funny thing is, I wanted to put Spanish Cedar or Mahogany cuz it looks a lot better and 'richer' than pine (IMO), but I kinda have to recreate the same look as before. To explain a little, the house dates back to 1814, and the windows have been replaced in 189something, and they are.... Pine. They've been painted every two years or so. The house burnt down and I gotta rebuild what didnt burn. Greg, thanks for the tips, however the opposite is also done, Pine over PVC.... believe it or not. What kind of Cedar would you recommend... Would I still have to seal it for the resins? We get Red Cedar here, its soft, like Pine, but its expensive compared to Pine. Anyways, back to the question... Is Shellac ok to seal Pine? Here is a pic of the house with the original mouldings and windows. (The one on the right)

Dirk Diggler · #6 08-10-2008, 11:56 AM

Hey why not go crazy and use something like a synthetic or even something as durable as Ipe?
I'm just throwing those out there, since the outdoors really does require durability. If I recall they used to build things for outdoors out of Teak but the price would be very prohibitive.
Now in your neck of the woods there should be many local varieties that should work great and be cheap since there's not a long journey to get there.
Good luck,
Dirk

beejomatic · #7 08-10-2008, 11:59 AM

As a still-practicing carpenter/cabinetmaker for over forty years, I would not recommend shellac for an exterior application, no matter what the final topcoat. It will not weather as well as some of the current products on the market, there being too many to list...
I would reccomend that you approach your problem from the standpoint of product compatability; ie; a product that uses a coating system complete in itself from primer to topcoat. Pratt & Lambert and Behr Products come to mind...
The other thing I would suggest is to back-prime all of your stock to seal even the parts of the windows that won't show. This can be done prior to assembly, and will increase the longevity of the job. Good luck!

PasdaBeer · #8 08-10-2008, 01:41 PM

pine bad

if its going to be painted over, stick with cedar or redwood.

personaly though, i would go with anderson viynal clad windows. I sold custom windows and doors, anderson always seemed to keep up the best.

bassmanhamilton · #9 08-10-2008, 02:29 PM

I would recommend Douglas Fir if the two choices that you mentioned wouldn't fit the budget. We've used a good bit of it in outdoor applications and door manufacturers have been using it for a long time. It will mill good through the shaper and properly primed and maintained, will be more stable and less prone to rot than the pine.
Good luck,
Joe

Nelson Guitars · #10 08-10-2008, 03:58 PM

There are many types of pine and perhaps the type they used for those windows is different from what we get today. Are you sure it's not spruce? That would be highly likely in your area and they can look similar.

If you are building sash why would you be considering knotty material? Stability problems. Staining problems. Structural weakness. All this says to me that it is not appropriate for windows.

My father in law used to tell me "There isn't anything more expensive than cheap materials." when it came to buying stuff for my projects. He was right. You don't have to buy the most expensive stuff but sometimes the least expensive costs you the most in the end.

Greg N

T2W · #11 08-10-2008, 04:39 PM

Good Point Greg. Ill think about that very carefuly. Pine here might be different than what you use in Cali, im sure it is. Here it is a common wood used for both doors and windows, however its definitely not the best, Cedar is also used a lot and I do believe I should go with that option. Its just a bit more money.. but your father in law is correct. and actually they might be Spruce... the joists are spruce (keep in mind this is 200 years ago, they are basically tress with no bark) and even though we don't have much spruce in this part of the country (Montreal) chances are there might have been some 200 years ago.
Thanks for your advice guys, Ill (try to) end the thread here since its got nothing to do with basses and that might be annoying to some, I respect that, I just knew I could get answers to my question in just one day with you knowledgeable people. FWIW, my mother and her husband bought this house and turned it into an Italian restaurant, unfortunately for them it burnt down in March and now that Im back home I was asked to do all the finishing, doors and windows, and staircases in the house. Beautiful project. Here is a promise: When we'll be done with the house/restaurant, Ill do a Montreal G2G and invite anyone from the region or anyone willing to drive.... for a nice bowl of pasta and glass of wine !!! Thanks for your help guys and see ya soon !!!