Obtaining CHEAP Headless Tuners

teej · #1 11-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Recently, I've become interested in headless tuners. I still think the headless design is less-than-attractive, though. Anyway, I searched the internet for hours yesterday, to see what my options were for aquiring headless tuners, and generallized the options into these three:

-- Buy a cheap headless bass, strip it for the hardware, resell what's left
-- Buy a the hardware from Status or Stienberger for $150-200
-- Make my own tuners

Options 1 and 2 seem a little out of reach right now, but 3 is possible. So I dug through my parts bin to see if I could get any ideas on making the tuners. I have a 4-string bridge, a bunch of machine screws, and bits of various hardware. After some scrutiny, I realized "Hey! This bridge could be easily modified to work as a tuner!"

While I haven't actually tried this yet, I'm hypothesizing that one could cut a deep slot and drill a small recess in the back of the saddles and use those to hold the ball end of the strings. When the saddle is moved forward or back (via the adjustment screw), it would act as a tuner would, by tightening/loosening the string.

I also came up with another idea involving some box steel, allen-head screws, and this long nut kind of thing (threaded coupling?). I'm off to Lowe's to see what I can come up with.

A third idea involved guitar tuners (purchased from this place since they're outrageously cheap), replacing the button with an allen socket, and cutting the thing the button mounts to so that it's flush with the tuner body.

Idea #4 involved piano-style tuning (with zither pins).

tjclem · #2 11-13-2006, 01:46 PM

I would also like to use more headless systems. I would like to see what others have done. I want to be able to use normal strings though.....T

Captain_joe6 · #3 11-13-2006, 02:07 PM

The only fault I can find with your first idea is that it could throw your intonation way out of whack.

One of the simplest ideas I've seen was on the old Kramer aluminum neck 8-string (octaves) basses. They ran the 4 main strings as usual, but ran the octaves in complete reverse. The ball ends were secured by running the strings through holes in the headstock, over the nut as usual, over the bridge as usual, and then anchored to 4 tuners arranged so that the octave strings would fan out slightly after they'd crossed over the bridge and saddles. One could quite possible use a method like this to make a bass that appeared to have, and would have, a head, but was in fact tuned at the bridge.

It's not the greatest image, but i think this conveys what I'm talking about:

tjclem · #4 11-13-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_joe6

The only fault I can find with your first idea is that it could throw your intonation way out of whack.

One of the simplest ideas I've seen was on the old Kramer aluminum neck 8-string (octaves) basses. They ran the 4 main strings as usual, but ran the octaves in complete reverse. The ball ends were secured by running the strings through holes in the headstock, over the nut as usual, over the bridge as usual, and then anchored to 4 tuners arranged so that the octave strings would fan out slightly after they'd crossed over the bridge and saddles. One could quite possible use a method like this to make a bass that appeared to have, and would have, a head, but was in fact tuned at the bridge.

This is the way I have thought of doing it but I can't mentaly picture how to do it nd still have the bass sit in a guitar stand and not bother the tuners...t

Captain_joe6 · #5 11-13-2006, 02:23 PM

EASY! check out hercules guitar stands. I've got a double and it fantastic. http://www.herculesstands.com/guitars/floorstands.html

teej · #6 11-13-2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_joe6

The only fault I can find with your first idea is that it could throw your intonation way out of whack.

I should have mentioned that it would have been used with a separate saddle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_joe6

One of the simplest ideas I've seen was on the old Kramer aluminum neck 8-string (octaves) basses. They ran the 4 main strings as usual, but ran the octaves in complete reverse. The ball ends were secured by running the strings through holes in the headstock, over the nut as usual, over the bridge as usual, and then anchored to 4 tuners arranged so that the octave strings would fan out slightly after they'd crossed over the bridge and saddles. One could quite possible use a method like this to make a bass that appeared to have, and would have, a head, but was in fact tuned at the bridge.

It's not the greatest image, but i think this conveys what I'm talking about:

This goes along with Idea #3.

gr8estbassist · #7 11-13-2006, 03:31 PM

i did option "A".

bought a stienberger. kept everything but the body. so i've got 150 bucks plus the cost of wood in it so far. i still have to paint it (maybe 30 bucks).

................

http://www.ets-hardware.com/

this guy looks like he makes some good stuff. though i don't know how exspensive they are.

tjclem · #8 11-13-2006, 03:35 PM

Neat stand but if you are building basses for customers you can't assume they have anything other than a regular guitar stand.....t

Thonk · #9 11-13-2006, 03:52 PM

I shelled out for a status set for my 6 string headless single cut(if anyone even remembers my thread yes im still building,progress shots soon),there not cheap even with picking up 4 tunners second hand (from a stripped king bass)from forum user at bassworld.co.uk and the nut and 2 other tunner from status themselfs my whole set(six string nut and 6 tunners in gold) cost me £165 thats about $340 ! i dont think my first 4 basses cost me that much hehe so id suggest route A:

teej · #10 11-13-2006, 05:03 PM

There are some cheap Steinberger copies on eBay for $150. I first checked Status' site last week. $42 doesn't sound like much until you realize that that's per tuner. I might e-mail ETS.

tjclem · #11 11-13-2006, 05:11 PM

The last I heard from ETS was about 70 euros for a 4 string....I would guess it has gone up a bit....t

teej · #12 11-13-2006, 05:35 PM

That's just less than 1/2 the cost of Status or Steinberger hardware. If that includes the price of the saddle, too, I wonder how much just the bridge/tuner unit would be?

ehque · #13 11-13-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_joe6

EASY! check out hercules guitar stands. I've got a double and it fantastic. http://www.herculesstands.com/guitars/floorstands.html

the gripper of the hercules guitar stand doesnt look like it'll function with headless basses, it actually relies on the downforce of the head to lock it, no?

gr8estbassist · #14 11-13-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehque

the gripper of the hercules guitar stand doesnt look like it'll function with headless basses, it actually relies on the downforce of the head to lock it, no?

correct.

teej · #15 11-13-2006, 06:50 PM

Thought about headless idea #3: Would it even be possible to use guitar tuners in place of bass tuners??

Captain_joe6 · #16 11-13-2006, 07:13 PM

In most headless circumstances the Hercules stands wouldn't work. Don't know how I missed that. Probably I was just so tied up in the whole reverse-stringing thing that I completely forgot about that. Though, depending on how one were to anchor the ball ends of the trings at the head, it could still be possible to use a gripper stand like that.

Or, you could recess the tuners a little but into the body in a Status kind of way, just enough to make the keys even with the butt end of the body wings. Sort of a reverse tail kinda thing.

I don't thing guitar tuners would work at all, they'd probably slip like mad under bass string tensions. Sperzels are pretty darned small, though.

bkim · #17 11-13-2006, 10:23 PM

I would give it a shot at making your own. I made some although the bass isn't finished yet so I cant comment on how they work. But, basically you just need 2 things: a way to hold the end of the string and a way to tighten it.

I made these using a electric hand drill and a $5 garage sale press that holds the drill. Use brass as it is easy to work and tap. I carved a block of Wenge to use as a cover but I think I'm scrapping that idea. It has been difficult locating knurled brass for the thumbscrews, but I think I have another way to do it.

teej · #18 11-13-2006, 10:42 PM

I'd like to make my own, but right now, I don't have the tools. Well, I do, but I'd rather wait until after Christmas, perhaps, when I get my drill press. Where'd ya get the brass stock?

EDIT: I thought guitars had more string tension than basses.

bkim · #19 11-13-2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teej

I'd like to make my own, but right now, I don't have the tools. Well, I do, but I'd rather wait until after Christmas, perhaps, when I get my drill press. Where'd ya get the brass stock?

EDIT: I thought guitars had more string tension than basses.

You can get usable size pieces from knife making supply houses (Kovals). Also check the yellow pages under metals. Depending on where you live you may have someplace local

Suburban · #20 11-14-2006, 03:02 AM

Converting an ordinary bridge could be doable, but includes a lot more work than building from scratch, if you want any quality.
Make your own or buy from ETS or ABM, or Status.