Odd Moses truss rod issue.

**barebones** · #1 08-12-2011, 12:08 AM

Hey, all. Working on a bass for a friend of mine here. He had Moses Graphite, Inc. make a custom replacement for his old Fender P-Lyte neck. Overall, the neck is pretty good, but I'm running into problems accessing the truss rod nut.

Moses placed the adjustment nut at the heel end--normal for them, I believe, based on others I've worked on. The problem is, they've got the nut sunk in there a full 1 1/2" from the end of the heel to the top of the nut. Probably a good 1 3/4" to the adjustable walls of the nut. (It's a "Gibson style" nut, so it's adjustable with a socket type end, not a hex wrench.)

None of the socket type truss rod wrenches I have can reach down into the access hole more than about 3/4", so I tried my nut drivers. Seemed like that would be the way to go. No big deal.

Well, here's the tricky part. From what I can tell shining a flashlight down into the access hole and eyeballing things, and from trying smaller nut drivers, I believe the nut itself is 5/16".

Unfortunately, the access hole was not drilled wide enough to allow the outer wall of a 5/16" nut driver, which is about 15/32", to pass through to the nut. The hole is about 7/16". Not quite wide enough to push the driver through without boring the hole wider. (All of these measurements, by the way, are eyeballed with a ruler, since my digital micrometer's battery just died.)

So, first off, I'm wondering if anyone has run into a similar situation, either with a Moses neck or another brand. My recollection of the few Moses bass necks I've worked with is that they took a hex wrench for adjustment anyway, not a standard nut, so I'm a little surprised to be dealing with this.

Secondly, what do you all recommend as a workaround? It seems my options could be as follows:

I could bore the hole with a half-inch bit. I'm a little leery of doing that, as there's the potential of cracking the thin wall from the edge of the existing hole to mounting surface of the heel. Further, the tip of the bit will hit the top of the bullet shaped end of the nut, leaving a taper at the bottom of the hole that the nut driver still probably could not pass through. I suppose I could file out the remainder down inside there... maybe...

I suppose I could also try some coarse sand paper rolled up for boring the hole wider. I actually had to do just that on the tuning machine holes today. The ones Moses drilled were slightly smaller than the ones on the P-Lyte.

In lieu of boring, does anyone know if I can get a thin wall driver or socket of some sort? One that could actually get down to the nut? I'm picturing maybe something along the lines of the thin wall steel sockets commonly used in plumbing applications, although I'm not sure I've ever seen one in a 5/16" size.

I also know Stew Mac sells some specialty, longer nut drivers, but I have no idea if the walls on those are any smaller in overall diameter than my old Craftsman nut drivers. I kind of doubt it, since to only specialty aspect of Mac's drivers appears to be the extended length.

Um... Maybe I could grind the walls of my 5/16" nut driver a little thinner.

Ugh.

I'm joking on that idea, of course.

Other than that... I think I'm out of ideas! Help!

Thanks!

Matt

Musiclogic · #2 08-12-2011, 01:31 AM

Contact Moses first, find out their ideas, don't mess up what you can't fix. Always contact the manufacturer before anything like this just as a precaution. C.Y.A. ya know.

**barebones** · #3 08-12-2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Contact Moses first, find out their ideas, don't mess up what you can't fix. Always contact the manufacturer before anything like this just as a precaution. C.Y.A. ya know.

I hear you. Always solid advice. Thank you. However, there's a history here. An early post of mine here on TB:

Moses Graphite, Inc.

Other threads here detail similar woes.

Bottom line, I cannot rely on the manufacturer. I will have to address this myself. Weeks of unanswered calls and emails is not a satisfactory option.

I'd really appreciate some practical suggestions from those who have either dealt with a similar mechanical problem, or ideas from those who can at least visualize the problem I've attempted to describe here.

It should go without saying, I hold no one responsible for any negative consequences resulting from freely offered brainstorms on this matter, should I actually attempt to implement said brainstorms. I certainly won't attempt any idea I don't believe to be logical and workable. And I alone am responsible for correctly implementing even logical, workable approaches offered by helpful TB brethren and sistren! Hallelujah!

Thank you!

Dirk Diggler · #4 08-12-2011, 07:32 AM

I believe those necks are designed to be adjusted with the neck off the body. I think that just makes adjustments painful. But luckily they don't move much, so once you have it adjusted it should stay where it is for a good while.
Dirk

hdracer · #5 08-12-2011, 08:21 AM

Contact your local Snap On dealer.
Snap On has deep thin wall sockets, mine is actually thinner than my Gibson wrench. They will sell you just the one you need. They are not cheap individually ($12-18 for one) but it should work.

**barebones** · #6 08-12-2011, 08:46 AM

I'll check the Snap-On option. To me, that's not a big expense to get the job done.

Dirk, the problem I'm having isn't that I have to take the neck off. The hole on the heel itself is deeper than normal. There is no access rout on the body, since the original neck was adjusted at the headstock end, so taking the neck off the bass is required anyway. No big deal there. Not sure if it was clear in my post above that I'm talking about the access to the nut through the end of the heel itself, not the body.

Thanks, guys.

Bass-Adrenaline · #7 08-12-2011, 10:59 AM

Ill second the thin wall socket suggestion. You should be able to find them at any nicer tool shop/supplier.

Good call on not getting moses involved. Up until this day they seem to be causing all sorts of issues for their customers.

hover · #8 08-12-2011, 02:52 PM

Leaving a customer in this predicament is inexcusable. Producing an adjustable feature that isn't readily adjustable is foolish and insulting.

In leiu of contacting Moses, and I feel you're correct in not wanting to given their history, I feel you either have to go the thin-wall deep well socket option, and if that does not work (which I fear it won't), I'd suggest a diamond tipped core-drill bit to expand the access well. You'd do well to have the neck clamped stationary and straight / true to the drill arbor's travel obviously, but aside from a bit of dust (USE A MASK! AND A VACCUUM) or a little lube / graphite slurry that you could rinse / flush out, I cannot see any other option.

**barebones** · #9 08-12-2011, 10:49 PM

Thanks for the advice, guys. I did a little hunting around for a thin wall socket today, but didn't manage to track one down. I only had time to check a couple of places, so not terribly surprising.

Part of me wants to go the re-boring route, just so no one else has to go tracking down a specialty tool for a simple truss rod adjustment should my buddy decide to sell this one day. The real bummer with all this is it means a two-hour job just got much longer, and I'm not going to be able to get this finished for my friend by tomorrow, which was my original plan. Bummer.

Ah, Moses...

**barebones** · #10 08-12-2011, 10:50 PM

And I will post the final solution/outcome on this when I've resolved things, just in case anyone else should ever run across such a bizarre condition as this.

**barebones** · #11 08-13-2011, 01:22 PM

Okey-dokey. So here's what I did:

Used a vise to hold the neck in place, worked outdoors, used a shop vac to catch the dust, wore a mask.

Affixed some 80 grit sand paper to a standard Sharpie pen using some Elmer's spray adhesive. (The pen turned out to be just the right diameter, and had a taper, which made it easier to work with than a straight dowel.)

Rolled (by hand) the sandpapered Sharpie back and forth inside the too small hole until I hit bottom. Took maybe half an hour to 45 minutes of twisting/turning/sanding.

At that point, the hole was just wide enough to get the simple Craftsman 5/8" nut driver all the way down to the nut and turn the nut. A way better option than every tech who ever works on this neck in the future having to have a specialty tool for a simple adjustment.

See pic for visual reference.

Now the bad news...

I suspected the first time I strung up the neck that there was a "hump" at the heel. Looks just like a condition I see on a lot of acoustic guitars I work on. Obviously, I knew I'd have to see how the neck settled in after adjusting the truss rod before I could say for sure that there is a flaw in the neck. I still want to work on it a bit more, but I have to run off to my part-time job right now. I am not optimistic from what I'm seeing now, however.

Bottom line: After working to solve one problem, the neck may end up being sent back to Steve at Moses after all, due to yet another design problem. Again, bummer. My buddy spent a few hundred bucks on a custom neck that's starting to look like a major fail.

Again, I'll keep you all posted. Thanks!

Matt

Dirk Diggler · #12 08-13-2011, 09:57 PM

Wow that looks nothing like the 2 necks I have here, but mine are guitar necks.

Sorry to hear of your problems, good luck on getting the solution solved.

By the way, pretty cool solution you used to enlarge the hole.

Dirk

**barebones** · #13 08-14-2011, 11:46 AM

Thanks, Dirk. I figure if it works it works. I just kind of got lucky with the dimensions of the Sharpie!

**barebones** · #14 08-29-2011, 05:42 PM

So, a little follow up here.

My buddy contacted Moses and received a response in about three days. Credit where credit is due there--that's big improvement in response time compared to what I and some others here have experienced.

Anyway, the neck is headed back to Moses, and Steve even offered to reimburse shipping once he's had a chance to look things over himself. I have high hopes that this will all come out right for my friend in the long run.

I'll post again when we have more info.

peterpan1972 · #15 03-09-2012, 11:24 PM

Hello everybody, I'm from Australia and I'm a guitarist. I'm here in the bass talk forum for the simple reason of sharing a common experience with a guitar Moses neck. The whole journey started when I played a friend's Gibson made Steinberger Spirit, a wooden version of the vintage all graphite original Steinberger. After being impressed with the licensed version, I decided to buy an original Steinberger guitar. Gobsmacked with the prices, I found Ed Roman's website and after doing the maths, I though it was a reasonable amount to have a Steinberger like guitar with original parts with the design I wanted! It took 8 long months to get my hands on the package... the order was 1 custom made body, 1 tremolo set, 1 Moses neck and a headpiece. When it arrived, the tremolo was missing. It took another 3 or 4 weeks for the tremolo to arrive after several unhappy phone calls. When I thought I had everything, I decided to do a quick assembly without any electronics just to check its playability. Just to find out that they've sent a left handed headpiece... I sent emails and phone calls again complaining and after another 3 weeks or so, they sent the correct right handed headpiece. I couldn't bother waiting and bought another one from eBay. After assembling it with all the pickups and wiring I was quite happy with the result. Until I noticed that with time, the neck started to warp slightly (I thought that graphite necks were immune to warping, but THEY ARE NOT!) and the strings action were gradually getting higher to the point of making playing uncomfortable. I tried all sorts of bridge / neck heel height adjustments with no success, until I finally concluded that the truss rod needed an adjustment. I tried all sizes of socket tools. Steve from Moses himself told me that it was a Gibson style rod and a 5/16" socket should do. The hole was not wide enough to get any sized socket to fit. I took some courage and drilled the hole wider using a 12mm drill bit. The closest match I could get was a 7/32" (way smaller than a 5/16") and still the socket would not grip the rod firmly enough to rotate the rod. In the end I thought of the possibility of having bought a neck with a snapped rod which I was trying to fit a hex socket with no success. Yes, so far I have not solved the problem and I don't want to spend more money on this project. The truss rod cavity really sucks and far from being user friendly and whether it is an adjustable rod or just a fixed stiffening rod (with no effectiveness) still remains a mystery to me.