Scarf Joint....why?

[Musiclogic]

Why do so many people on here use scarf joints for making angled headstocks???? I have never understood this method personally. Just wondering.

[Trevorus]

It is stronger than a one piece angle neck, if done properly. The best example are les paul guitars with the repaired headstock.

[Geoff St. Germaine]

It also generally reduces the amount of wood that you need to use to build the neck.

[Musiclogic]

If it's stronger?.....why is it I get so many scarf joint repairs in my shop? I guess it's a theory. I do understand the savings in wood. That makes sense, The strength concept is lost on me. I guess I'll have to put one together and do some stress tests....LOL I have plenty of neck blanks.

[Musiclogic]

Thanks for the info!!!

[Trevorus]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

If it's stronger?.....why is it I get so many scarf joint repairs in my shop? I guess it's a theory. I do understand the savings in wood. That makes sense, The strength concept is lost on me. I guess I'll have to put one together and do some stress tests....LOL I have plenty of neck blanks.

Like I said, stronger, if done properly. Proper gluing, proper grain orientation, all that...

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

If it's stronger?.....why is it I get so many scarf joint repairs in my shop? I guess it's a theory. I do understand the savings in wood. That makes sense, The strength concept is lost on me. I guess I'll have to put one together and do some stress tests....LOL I have plenty of neck blanks.

A properly done glue joint is stronger than the surrounding wood. Of course, I've seen plenty of glue joints that weren't as strong as wet newspaper.

The strength comes from the grain orientation. With a single piece of wood with an angled headstock the grain on the headstock is very short as it won't run parallel to the headstock face. On a scarf joint it does.

What sort of instruments with scarf joints do you get in your shop for repairs all the time?

[THIRSTYGUMS]

This is interesting, i've never got to grips with the scarf joint strength theory! (nor the quarter sawn thing) Preach on...

[Trevorus]

Think about the grain. The strings will pull along the grain at the headstock, and as the direction changes at the nut, so does the grain orientation in the main piece of the neck.

[Suburban]

And where the grain would run out, leaving a very thin area where the strain would go at a certain angle to the grain, you have continuous wood. Consequently, less risk of splitting the wood, especially when the instrument falls...
And, a good glue joint is way stronger than an angle cut piece of wood.

[HeathW]

thats true but they are not as pretty as you can never hide that join, so it's nornaly done just as a wood saving as the saving is large compared to a standard angle neck join, still enuff good luthiers use um so what do I know, just don't like or use them myself.

[Rodent]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

If it's stronger?.....why is it I get so many scarf joint repairs in my shop? I guess it's a theory. I do understand the savings in wood. That makes sense, The strength concept is lost on me. I guess I'll have to put one together and do some stress tests....LOL I have plenty of neck blanks.

still waiting to hear what brands/models you experience the delaminate issues with

all the best,

R

[Musiclogic]

Sorry about the wait, I am very busy in my shop, and do not have a lot of time on the comp. As for brands that I get scarf joint repairs......Jackson, Ibanez, Old Kramers, Yamaha, just off the top of my head. I also had a Valley Arts in about 2 years ago but that was more carelessness than the join itself, (dropped off a stage....said it was a straplock malfunction....LOL)

I appreciate the info once again, I have a better understanding of the concept behind these now. But as Heath W said, "I do not like them, and choose not to use them personally".

[Rodent]

thanks for the brand info - I'll have to take a peek at their scarf joints next time I'm in the local GC

all the best,

R

[Dusty G]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Sorry about the wait, I am very busy in my shop, and do not have a lot of time on the comp. As for brands that I get scarf joint repairs......Jackson, Ibanez, Old Kramers, Yamaha, just off the top of my head. I also had a Valley Arts in about 2 years ago but that was more carelessness than the join itself, (dropped off a stage....said it was a straplock malfunction....LOL)

I appreciate the info once again, I have a better understanding of the concept behind these now. But as Heath W said, "I do not like them, and choose not to use them personally".

It sounds like you're saying that the actual scarf joint itself separated, is that what you mean?? With the fretboard glued on and all! I've never heard of that happening.

I think people that say they don't like scarf joints just don't like to build them. That's also why I don't like them, but at least I admit it!!

[Rodent]

I have seen one scarf joint separation in my 25+ years of playing ... and it was on an 80's era 'big hair pointy type" thin string that belonged to some unknown headbanger ... Charvel or Jackson or something with that weird sloped headstock

from what I can recall it appeared as if the glue joint had simply "gone dry" and fell apart when the headstock found one of the PA columns

since Warmoth utilizes a scarf joint in their angled headstocks, it'd be interesting to hear from one of the Warmoth guys just how often they see one of their necks in for a separated/cracked scarf joint repair. I bet the answer will be few if any, as Warmoth appears to do scarf joints with excellence

all the best,

R

[Musiclogic]

I have repaired upwards of 30 scarfjoint seperations. Generally on the back of the neck side of the joint is where they start. Just for further clarification. I have seen them broken clear through the fretboard, usually from a drop.

I do get a kick out of people who try to make it a sour grapes issue when all I wanted to know was why people use them.

Sorry...no teenage angst here, or slave to any fashionable sense of arguement for the sake of arguement. It was just a collection of information.

[Suburban]

Well, I gather it's a matter of how it's done:
good glue+good work=great joint
bad (e.g. aging, or brittle) glu+bad workmanship (industry...)=broken joint

I have seen pictures of broken off heads with scarf joints. I have still not seen any where the joint itself was broken - the break was due to violent force on the head and the wood broke up.

Then again, my expereince is quite limited...

[Rooney]

My father works in a local music store. He sold a guitar (not sure the brand) to this kid and his mom. They came back a week later with the headstock broken completely off. I can't remember if he said it was the scarf joint or not. But the kid claimed that during tuning it just snapped.

He said it looked like it had been dropped.

[bwbass]

Originally Posted by Rodent

since Warmoth utilizes a scarf joint in their angled headstocks, it'd be interesting to hear from one of the Warmoth guys just how often they see one of their necks in for a separated/cracked scarf joint repair. I bet the answer will be few if any, as Warmoth appears to do scarf joints with excellence

Thanks for the kind words!

I haven't been here forever, but I've never heard of one of our necks failing at this joint. Ken Warmoth (a big guy, mind you), likes to say he can stand on one of our tilt-back blanks without breaking it. The secret to our success are a good clamping set-up, and the fact that both surfaces in our joint are machined, not sanded, using this terrifying shaper setup:



Having said that, I have seen a few scarf-jointed necks other than ours that failed, mostly due to heat that caused the glue in the joint to soften. Hot cars in Arizona are like an oven...