strongest commercial glue

[jordan_frerichs]

starting my highschool bass body soon. everyone knows how much pressure goes on the body from the neck and strings and all that. don't want to use the school elmers(?) wood glue, and have it come to pieces as soon as i string it. went to big G ace, they gave me what they said was there strongest glue, waterproof Titebond III, Ultimate Wood Glue.
is this sufficent? what is the strongest glue apropraite for luthiering?
the only wood the scool has that i am using in my project, that is already naturaly thick enough, is black walnut. going to have to laminate the maple, ash and iron wood to bulk there width, and the laminate the whole the from side to side, so i am looking at maybe 14-23 pieces of wood going into this, unless i go with one of the down town lumber yards. might have to, but will cost more

for more on my project go here : shopclass project AKA first bass build

[Nelson Guitars]

Use the standard Titebond. More than sufficient for what you are doing. Titebond II and III have more creep factor than the original. Even old fashioned Elmer's white glue will do.

By all means DO NOT USE GORILLA GLUE! It's a mess and not even as strong as regular alphatic resin. Unless you plan on using your bass for a paddle you don't have to worry about waterproof. Being waterproof does not make it a better glue.

Greg N

[DavidRavenMoon]

I agree about original Titebond. I have used Titebond III, mostly because it was available and Ken Smith said he uses it. Seems to work fine and I didn't have a problem with creep, but it is said to have more creep than the original type. Type II doesn't dry as hard.

I almost always glue my fingerboards on with G3 or G2 epoxy, and I once glued a whole bass together with G3, but that was a mess. Bass sounds great though.

[Nelson Guitars]

Originally Posted by DavidRavenMoon

I almost always glue my fingerboards on with G3 or G2 epoxy

Is there a good reason to do this? I have gone the opposite direction and only use hide glue on FB's. Never a failure and in the event I need to do any sort of repair work it is completely reversible.

I do quite a bit of repair work and I can remove and reset old vintage necks that have gone past the ability of the truss rod to hold them straight while keeping the original FB's. Newer instruments I wind up jointing off the FB and having to replace it new.

Greg N

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by Nelson Guitars

Is there a good reason to do this? I have gone the opposite direction and only use hide glue on FB's. Never a failure and in the event I need to do any sort of repair work it is completely reversible.

I do quite a bit of repair work and I can remove and reset old vintage necks that have gone past the ability of the truss rod to hold them straight while keeping the original FB's. Newer instruments I wind up jointing off the FB and having to replace it new.

Greg N

+1

If I'm gluing cocobolo, lignum vitae, or another oily species, I use West Systems epoxy.

If I'm concerned about creep, I use epoxy or one of the urea formaldehyde formulations like Unibond-800.

I use both pre-mixed hide glue and hot hide glue as appropriate. In addition to its reversibility, I like the fact that fresh hide glue will bond to cured hide glue (can any other adhesives make that claim?), and doesn't interfere with finishing. My favorite pre-mixed is Olde Brown Glue, which I buy from Pat Edwards' American School of French Marquetry:
http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/

[Jonsbasses]

Originally Posted by Nelson Guitars

Is there a good reason to do this? I have gone the opposite direction and only use hide glue on FB's. Never a failure and in the event I need to do any sort of repair work it is completely reversible.

I do quite a bit of repair work and I can remove and reset old vintage necks that have gone past the ability of the truss rod to hold them straight while keeping the original FB's. Newer instruments I wind up jointing off the FB and having to replace it new.

Greg N

Titebond contains moisture, epoxy does not. A fair amount of the guys that switched from Titebond to Epoxy for gluing fingerboards to the neck have had issues with the neck bowing a very small amount. This has happened to me on my last 3 builds, it's kind of an annoying variable when using Titebond for fingerboards.

[Nelson Guitars]

Originally Posted by Jonsbasses

issues with the neck bowing a very small amount (edit) when using Titebond for fingerboards.

When using thin materials like this I make it a practice to wet the non glued side with a moist paper towel to counter the tendency of the wood to warp away from the glued side.

From a repair perspective I still think epoxy is not an appropriate glue for this application. To each his own I guess.

Greg N

[DavidRavenMoon]

Originally Posted by Nelson Guitars

Is there a good reason to do this? I have gone the opposite direction and only use hide glue on FB's. Never a failure and in the event I need to do any sort of repair work it is completely reversible.

First, I don't use hide glue, and have no plans on using it.

Epoxy is easy to release with heat. A clothes iron works fine. G2 and G3 epoxy are made for wood. G3 is made for oily woods. They were designed to glue airplanes together. West is good stuff also.

I started using epoxy because I was using phenolic boards and carbon/graphite composites. I also got the idea because my partner worked with Ned on the original NS Double bass prototypes, and they are made from layers of wood veneer, carbon fiber and epoxy. I liked the idea of using lams under my fingerboards to stiffing the phenolic, so that's where that came from.

Epoxy also dried a lot harder than some other glues, so I think it adds to the tone of the neck. I decided to try an entire bass, and I have to say it sounds great. Has more presence than the same models glued with Titebond.

it's been working well for me for the past 15 years, so I see no reason to not use it.

[DavidRavenMoon]

Originally Posted by Jonsbasses

Titebond contains moisture, epoxy does not. A fair amount of the guys that switched from Titebond to Epoxy for gluing fingerboards to the neck have had issues with the neck bowing a very small amount. This has happened to me on my last 3 builds, it's kind of an annoying variable when using Titebond for fingerboards.

+10,000! Yes.. I totally forgot that point, which was the other reason we don't use Titebond for fingerboards. I don't want to have to level my wood board after I glue it on, since it was already level to start with. And that's what happens with water based glues.

Originally Posted by Nelson Guitars

When using thin materials like this I make it a practice to wet the non glued side with a moist paper towel to counter the tendency of the wood to warp away from the glued side.

From a repair perspective I still think epoxy is not an appropriate glue for this application. To each his own I guess.

So fight water with water? That's kind of a kluge. You want to have your fingerboard clamped to a solid straight surface, and having a wet paper towel between the board and the caul is not the way to do it. Also the towel will dissipate moisture faster than the glue will from inside the wood, so you still have an equilibrium problem.

Many builders use epoxy for fingerboards. Go visit MIMF and read the library. And no one has an issue with removing the boards for repair. Now Gorilla glue would be a problem! I build with the assumption that the neck wont need to be repaired any time soon, if ever. I'm not building worrying about if someone can take the neck apart.. they should never have to.

[jordan_frerichs]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

+1

If I'm gluing cocobolo, lignum vitae, or another oily species, I use West Systems epoxy.
:
http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/

dude! the center of the bass is lignum vitae. the oily factor concerns me though. what do i need to know about working with this wood? i am laminating 2-3 layers of is togeter to get the thickness, then glue it to maple sides

[Mr. Majestic]

Titebond III also is a brownish color that when it dries leaves a dark line between every laminate.

[jordan_frerichs]

that don't sound good. glad i kept the recipt and not used it yet

[Nelson Guitars]

Like I said, to each his own.

Originally Posted by DavidRavenMoon

So fight water with water? That's kind of a kluge.

Not a Kluge, just keeping the balance. I didn't say leave the paper towel in your clamping rig. I just apply the moisture with a wet rag. I could mist it too, but that is a bit much and I have less control. And my necks come out dead flat. Never had a problem with that.

Yes, epoxy will release with heat. But try to bond to the old surfaces again. Iffy at best. This is an old argument and those who believe in epoxy and those who believe in hide both have good points. I just know that the neck reset I did on a mandolin that was over 100 years old went flawlessly and I was able to save the perceived value of the instrument by keeping all the original materials. This would have been next to impossible if the neck had been epoxied on.

Wood is wood and string tension will pull a neck up no matter what glue is used to attach the FB. I hope and pray my instruments will still be in use 100 or more years from now. If I can make a future repairman's job that much easier I will be pleased.

Again, not discounting anyone here. Just my outlook on things.

Greg N

[Jonsbasses]

Originally Posted by Mr. Majestic

Titebond III also is a brownish color that when it dries leaves a dark line between every laminate.

Does it stain the laminates? Because if your glue lines are visible you're clamping it wrong.

Also, I strongly do not recommend Titebond II and III for luthiery work. They aren't "weak" by any means, but why pay more for something when Titebond original is meant for the task?

[jordan_frerichs]

going to retern the glue and get the original when i get the chance. if they have the variation, they should have th original

[wilser]

I switch to polyurethane glue (franklin, not gorilla) because I had many problems with wood movement due to the moisture content of titebond original in my non-climate controlled shop. I've had no problems at all since I switched to poly glue and it's as strong as it needs to be to hold a bass together (yes, the wood breaks around it before the bond breaks), is very easy to remove squeeze out (which is a PAIN with titebond) and is also reversible with heat (I have had to remove a couple of fingerboards after they were glued on because of mishaps during construction).

I'm just sharing my experience, not trying to debate anyone on the merits of what they use.

[Mr. Majestic]

Originally Posted by Jonsbasses

Does it stain the laminates? Because if your glue lines are visible you're clamping it wrong.?

I own a cabinet shop and a cabinet door shop. Over the last 20 years we have built close to 80,000 cabinet doors. I believe we have figured out the correct clamping method. But I have found that when gluing lighter colored wood together, such as in mortise and tenon joints, Titebond III sometimes will stain the endgrain and thus transfer as a dark line.
We almost exclusivley use Titebond II in my shop. Not that it is any stronger, just that it "covers all the bases".

*I would also like to add that my experience with this glue comes from a cabinet makers standpoint and not a luthiers. So you need to listen to the hands on guys when it comes to bass building.*

[pilotjones]

IIRC, Ken Smith said that he uses TB II, not TB III. I don't think TB III existed at the time he made the switch.

[Nelson Guitars]

What is it about glue that gets luthiers up in arms anyway?

Greg N

[Jonsbasses]

Originally Posted by Mr. Majestic

I own a cabinet shop and a cabinet door shop. Over the last 20 years we have built close to 80,000 cabinet doors. I believe we have figured out the correct clamping method.

My question wasn't intended as a bash, I prefer to spend my time helping people and the general public understand what they're doing wrong so they can spend more time building. Again, sorry if you took it as an insult.