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11-06-2010, 01:04 PM
| | Banned | | Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Holland | | | At what point does a luthier become a machine operator?
Just wondering what the opinions are on this one.
In theory, you can program a CNC machine, throw in a piece of wood, and an hour later, a bass comes out on the other end.
And then there is Jens Ritter, who carves a bass out of 1 piece of wood, by hand.
Where is that line, where you stop being a craftsman and become a machine oparator. 
Last edited by Rob17 : 11-06-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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11-06-2010, 01:14 PM
| | | | I believe you are rather oversimplifying the process when you say "an hour later, a bass comes out on the other end" of the CNC machining of instruments.
Shaping the wood is a big part of lutherie, but it is not the whole cheeseburger.
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Heretic Custom [heretic-cg.us]
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11-06-2010, 01:18 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Austin, TX | | Depends on how much you are willing to pay...  |
11-06-2010, 01:44 PM
|  | Registered muser | | Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: US-NY-NYC | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob17  In theory, you can program a CNC machine, throw in a piece of wood, and an hour later, a bass comes out on the other end. | good lord, I hope you're joking. Quote: |
Where is that line, where you stop being a craftsman and become a machine oparator.
| Even a sixteenth century violin maker could be considered "just a hand tool operator."
Well it's been a year or two since we've had the big war over similar issues, the form of, "what is a luthier."
__________________ "Art without engineering is dreaming; engineering without art is calculating." |
11-06-2010, 01:47 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Jersey, US | | | If any amount of your effort goes into a bass, I consider you a luthier, from carving the neck to spraying the finish to screwing on the strap button.
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11-06-2010, 01:55 PM
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+1 Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockingbird If any amount of your effort goes into a bass, I consider you a luthier, from carving the neck to spraying the finish to screwing on the strap button. | I completely agree with this statement Rockingbird. |
11-06-2010, 02:07 PM
| | Banned | | Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Manhattan | | I think the bigger question is: "How much does it matter?"
If at all.
And sometimes for the worse?
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11-06-2010, 02:50 PM
| | Banned | | Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Area 51 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockingbird If any amount of your effort goes into a bass, I consider you a luthier, from carving the neck to spraying the finish to screwing on the strap button. | Cool, I've done electric/acoustic guitar and electric bass repair and assembly in a hobbyist and semi-pro capacity since the late '60s and I've never thought of myself as a luthier, just a part-time repair guy who also assembles instruments. I also fixed amps for a few years in the mid to late '70s.
Last edited by Gort : 11-06-2010 at 02:54 PM.
Reason: Spelling, add content.
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11-06-2010, 03:18 PM
| | Banned
Luthier of Michael Wayne Instruments | | Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cincinnati OH | | | If you are starting the machine without knowing how to complete an instrument you are an operator. If you are starting the machine and know how to complete the instrument you are a luthier; and an efficient one at that. |
11-06-2010, 03:43 PM
| | Registered User
Owner: LilRay's Leatherworks | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between my Roscoe and Leather | | ^^BINGO!!!!^^ 
God Bless, Ray
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1 Peter 1:13 Quote: |
Originally Posted by RocketMusic Ray is correct! | |
11-06-2010, 06:12 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NSB Central Florida | | Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyswood If you are starting the machine without knowing how to complete an instrument you are an operator. If you are starting the machine and know how to complete the instrument you are a luthier; and an efficient one at that. | Exactly. Knowing how to work the design program(i.e. Solidworks, Autocad) is a highly regarded skill in its own right. Then knowing how to properly setup/maintain/use a CNC mill is another. There is a [major] difference between a button pusher and a machinist/engineer.
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11-06-2010, 07:51 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: NC | | | I agree with Mikey's statement, and I also think that a Luthier is someone who cares about what they're making. I see someone like Roger Sadowsky as someone who puts a lot into his instruments. I don't see the people at Fender as Luthiers because it seems to be about the money. Both makers use CNCs, but there's a huge difference in their feelings about their products. (I also do realize that there is a large difference in the size of said companies) |
11-07-2010, 12:00 AM
|  | Registered User
Owner/Builder: HJC Customs USA, The Cool Lute, C G O | | Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Southwest Michigan | | | When you have the ability to differentiate from; button pusher, guitar/bass builder, and luthier, then you will realize the real distance between what you ask and what reality is. Good luck with the odyssey.
Last edited by Musiclogic : 11-08-2010 at 11:13 AM.
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11-07-2010, 12:21 AM
| | | | luthier ... trust me very hard work.... luthier not cnc |
11-07-2010, 12:53 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Finland (Northern Europe) | | Hi.
My personal view was in the "original" war, and still is, that the first power tool turns the craftsman into a machine operator.
As for the description of a luthier or luthiery, history books are very, very clear about that .
I have built about 20 instruments over the decades and repaired way more, but not in a million years would I even consider myself a luthier as a result. An instrument builder, yes, but luthiery is something else entirely. Even by description for starters.
If people want to bend descriptions and inflate their egos, fine, but sometimes it's beyond silly if You ask me.
Just my 0.02€
Sam |
11-07-2010, 07:31 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Newburyport MA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Bird Hi.
My personal view was in the "original" war, and still is, that the first power tool turns the craftsman into a machine operator.
As for the description of a luthier or luthiery, history books are very, very clear about that .
I have built about 20 instruments over the decades and repaired way more, but not in a million years would I even consider myself a luthier as a result. An instrument builder, yes, but luthiery is something else entirely. Even by description for starters.
If people want to bend descriptions and inflate their egos, fine, but sometimes it's beyond silly if You ask me.
Just my 0.02€
Sam |
A craftsman is someone who is skilled in the tools and materials that they use to create desired results. Tools are just that tools, it is the operator of those tools that create the finished product. Does anybody here thinks for one second that back in the day instrument makers would not have used power tools had they been available? Of course they would have.
A luthier by definition is someone who makes stringed instruments. It doesn't say they have to be good or acoustic and the term luthier is only about 130 yrs old. You can be a luthier and not a craftsman as evident by an number of craptastic instruments that are out there. I think there are a number of people here on this forum that should be considered both luthiers and craftsmen and not be sold short by there mere fact that they happen to live in a time where power tools exist and they use them.
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11-07-2010, 07:35 AM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brooklyn Park, MN. | | | ^^^ very well said.
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11-07-2010, 07:40 AM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Willow Street, PA | | | Ok here's a quick question. How many instruments do you have to build before calling yourself a luthier? Or is it a matter of reaching an understanding of the process, or can it be as simple as approaching the art with a love of the craft and a desire to improve?
When do you go from "building guitars" to being able to call yourself a luthier? |
11-07-2010, 08:01 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brooklyn Park, MN. | | | ^ Good question. I have thought about that too. It isn't like other trades. A doctor or lawyer has sheepskin. A master plumber is certified. Myself, I am certified as a Master machinist & welder. I think that is where the confusion comes in.
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11-07-2010, 08:07 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: MEXICANADAMERICA | | | when does one go from being able to play an instrument to being called a musician? a very similar conundrum.
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Last edited by pacojas : 11-07-2010 at 08:09 AM.
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