Audition rant.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by A Spotless Mind

Here are some some excerpt videos that I think are very well played.

All performed by Colin Corner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNv7DjEF0YA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YRePbyfoHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WG0IUxy-4s

Sorry to derail the thread, but I'd love to have that percussive bowing technique when playing my jazz solos.

[ILIA]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

because of union regulations


orchestras hold auditions and waste everyone's time and money (including their own) because they are afraid to upset the AFM


I do not defend the abuses of some of the old time conductors, but the hand picking of players by conductors really worked, and it still works today very well (example: Luzerne Festival in Switzerland with Claudio Abbado)

it is a cheap, efficient, and much less stressful system


interestingly enough, if you ever had a chance to talk to musicians that worked for one of these so called tyrants (Szell, Toscanini, Reiner), you will usually find that most of the orchestra members loved and respected the maestros immensely, something we rarely see today

I would never want to go back to that system. It gives the conductor too much control and subjects the hiring of musicians to the same whims that musicians have to endure as freelancers in a pickup orchestra. Yes, the current system for filling vacancies has its flaws, but I think it is just being implemented poorly and in some cases decisions are made in a very insensitive way. On the whole, I think holding blind auditions works.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by ILIA

It gives the conductor too much control and subjects the hiring of musicians to the same whims that musicians have to endure as freelancers in a pickup orchestra.

I have been both, tenured orchestra member, and now I am back to being a freelancer.

The freelancer scene is -by and large- not governed by whims but by personnel managers that want reliable and trouble free musicians. They hire in all age and racial groups much more than the symphonies do, and there is a great deal of loyalty towards people that do a good job. The personnel managers are not whimsical, they fear losing their job when someone doesn't perform, is late, or is rude to someone.

The biggest fights, the laziest players and the biggest nonsense is found in tenured orchestras.

[JWeisner]

I am not generally given to posting on Talkbass, but I have to take exception to one point:

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

I have been both, tenured orchestra member, and now I am back to being a freelancer.

The freelancer scene is -by and large- not governed by whims but by personnel managers that want reliable and trouble free musicians. They hire in all age and racial groups much more than the symphonies do, and there is a great deal of loyalty towards people that do a good job. The personnel managers are not whimsical, they fear losing their job when someone doesn't perform, is late, or is rude to someone.

The biggest fights, the laziest players and the biggest nonsense is found in tenured orchestras.

There is actually a fair amount of statistically based research showing that the screened audition process used by tenured orchestras results in dramatic improvements in hiring diversity, especially gender diversity, in orchestras. Placing hiring choices in the hands of one person, be it a contractor or a music director, tends to lead to more prejudiced hiring decisions. Here are links to some studies confirming this:

http://www.faculty.diversity.ucla.ed...partiality.pdf

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml

Regardless of the artistic merits of various hiring mechanisms, screened auditions generally are the best system for gender diversity.

[JWeisner]

i recently posted about the Chicago audition, and "no-hire" auditions in general, here:

http://peabodydoublebass.blogspot.co...-audition.html

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by JWeisner

Regardless of the artistic merits of various hiring mechanisms, screened auditions generally are the best system for gender diversity.

you may have a point, I may be just lucky to live in an area where you don't need such coercive action for personnel managers to act in a civilized manner

here in southern Ontario, and also in my previous Michigan years, the freelance scene is/was amazingly fair

[G-force]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

I have been both, tenured orchestra member, and now I am back to being a freelancer.

The freelancer scene is -by and large- not governed by whims but by personnel managers that want reliable and trouble free musicians. They hire in all age and racial groups much more than the symphonies do, and there is a great deal of loyalty towards people that do a good job. The personnel managers are not whimsical, they fear losing their job when someone doesn't perform, is late, or is rude to someone.

The biggest fights, the laziest players and the biggest nonsense is found in tenured orchestras.

What planet do you live on? and in which century ?

Hello? Feudalism is OVER .

I find lazy people everywhere tenured or not, even in the mirror sometimes.
Nonsense and fights are sometimes a natural result of a working environment with a degree of security . A welcome change .
I feel no shame for choosing this lifestyle.
I am not knocking freelancing at all but your last comment reduces your cred. in my book.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by G-force

What planet do you live on? and in which century ?

Hello? Feudalism is OVER .

I find lazy people everywhere tenured or not, even in the mirror sometimes.
Nonsense and fights are sometimes a natural result of a working environment with a degree of security . A welcome change .
I feel no shame for choosing this lifestyle.
I am not knocking freelancing at all but your last comment reduces your cred. in my book.

Hi G-force, I am an economist as well, hiring someone to do a job and the other one accepting to do the job is far from feudalism, this is how we all hire our plumbers or how we choose the products we buy. This is not feudalism, it is actually the opposite: freedom of choice on the part of both parties.

I am sure it would be very nice for the grocer you patronize to have -as you say- "a working environment with a degree of security". How about you yourself no longer having the right to patronize whichever grocer you want, but you have one assigned to you, for life, no shopping around, and if he/she becomes lazy and does not deliver the goods you have to recourse. And if you decide to rebel, they send a union which has the power to send the police against you.


I am sorry if my post disappointed you, but I have the right to believe in the freedom of choice on the part of all parties. I stand for freedom.

[Big B.]

I have to stick with Dr. Rod on this one. I am a tenured orchestra member and freelancer. With freelance gigs there is often a certain amount of B.S. that goes into the initial hire but after that your playing sells you and gets you the jobs in the future.

In the tenured orchestra I play in, at least 20% of the orchestra is not on a level suitable for the symphony. The problem happened because the quality of the orchestra has increased dramatically in recent years. Our orchestra was basically a community orchestra until about 10 years ago. A shift was made in the direction of being a legitimate professional orchestra and the standards have risen dramatically. The problem comes when you have players who have been tenured for 25 years in a community orchestra but simply cant play at the new higher standard.

The orchestra's approach was to try and weed them out but the rules of hiring/firing make that very hard to do so we are left with a percentage of our orchestra that gets paid the same rate but does not prepare/perform the music properly. This results in lower quality performances and that is unacceptable to me. We also have a fine bassist that is prone to coming in 5 minutes late to half the rehearsals. Once at the rehearsal he is obviously sight reading and does not perform well despite being a great player.

The point is this. If these people were not tenured they would not be hired back. The quality of the group would rise and musicians who have practiced and prepared will be getting paid. The problem with a tenured gig is that you are left relying on peoples' work ethic and the willingness of the conductor to solve the problems. In a freelance setting an unqualified/unprepared player usually gets hired only once. As a responsible, prepared musician I find that quite appealing.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

because of union regulations


orchestras hold auditions and waste everyone's time and money (including their own) because they are afraid to upset the AFM

I just contacted my union rep here in Chicago, and aside from the use of screens in major orchestras, there are no union regulations covering auditions.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

I just contacted my union rep here in Chicago, and aside from the use of screens in major orchestras, there are no union regulations covering auditions.

that is what they tell you, but orchestras know that if they don't hold the audition they expose themselves to the danger of lawsuits, in which the Union always plays a major role

and the requirements for hiring with an audition are usually a part of the collective contract with the unionized workforce, this is bargained by the union

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by Big B.

In a freelance setting an unqualified/unprepared player usually gets hired only once. As a responsible, prepared musician I find that quite appealing.

that's exactly the point, thank you

[neilG]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

I just contacted my union rep here in Chicago, and aside from the use of screens in major orchestras, there are no union regulations covering auditions.

There are no bylaws that govern auditions, but there are informal guidelines. A group doesn't HAVE to hold auditions if it's not required in their CBA.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by neilG

A group doesn't HAVE to hold auditions if it's not required in their CBA.

precisely

[skwee]

Here's the thing: now that I've had a few years on the "other side" of the auditioning table, I can tell you that we want very much to hear someone who wows us, who can get the job done, and will be a good member of the ensemble. There have been auditions when there was not one finalist out of the fifteen that could handle a full-time chamber singing position, whether from experience, skill, or personality, or combination thereof. Any organization wants someone to work out, and as they are listening to you, they want you to work out.

The fact is that if you are running a world-class (or any high level) company, you can't play games with personnel. Shoehorning someone in can damage an organization's reputation, funding, established working relationships, etc. So, in the instances when there isn't a hire at the end of the day, everyone loses.

BTW, I'm not offended at all by your original post. I have been in that situation many times. It's just the industry, and if you ever get in the position to make some changes with the way folks get hired, go for it. Our organization certainly has made great strides over the past 6 years.

[G-force]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

Hi G-force, I am an economist as well, hiring someone to do a job and the other one accepting to do the job is far from feudalism, this is how we all hire our plumbers or how we choose the products we buy. This is not feudalism, it is actually the opposite: freedom of choice on the part of both parties.

I am sure it would be very nice for the grocer you patronize to have -as you say- "a working environment with a degree of security". How about you yourself no longer having the right to patronize whichever grocer you want, but you have one assigned to you, for life, no shopping around, and if he/she becomes lazy and does not deliver the goods you have to recourse. And if you decide to rebel, they send a union which has the power to send the police against you.


I am sorry if my post disappointed you, but I have the right to believe in the freedom of choice on the part of all parties. I stand for freedom.

OK Feudalism was a stretch and lame attempt at levity.
I like this discussion and mean no disrespect with my tone through text but I still don´t get your point.
Police? OK a bit OTT but I get it.
Are you saying that tenured = non-terminable ? If so then I unserstand your point . Non-terminable is rare if at all. Anyone can get fired if only it is upstairs.....

I do resent your generalisation of tenured ensembles as tumultuous hotbeds of laxness. If this is your view of it than I truly am dissapointed .Sounds a bit embittered.

BONUS

OK, to the rest a yous out there. Why don´t people put there money where their mouth is and start a grassroots mvt to change this instead of the armchair philosophy going on here.

I already mentioned this to Mr. Muroki only to be given a kindly passive response of "I doubt it will help".

Well why complain then if one hasn´t even attempted to rectify this matter in the real world.
The forum is a great way of exchanging ideas.

I for one don´t see any issues to be rectified only a frustrating hunt for perfection in a confusing age of media/career choices.

Catharsis can be a dangerous thing. While letting off steam it sometimes dangerously weakens the motivation.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by G-force

OK Feudalism was a stretch and lame attempt at levity.
I like this discussion and mean no disrespect with my tone through text but I still don´t get your point.

thank you G-force, none taken

Originally Posted by G-force

Are you saying that tenured = non-terminable ? If so then I unserstand your point . Non-terminable is rare if at all. Anyone can get fired if only it is upstairs.....

nothing is really forever of course. But my point is that ideally termination should be as easy as a 30 day notice, just like in other walks of life. If you don't like this grocer, you go to the other one, I am sure the grocer has kids and obligations yet we exercise our freedom to choose and nobody accuses us of being whimsical.

Termination in unionized orchestras is commonly the same as litigation. Unless the player has truly insulted everyone, or sexually harassed someone etc...the union will get in between and fight for the player. Being unpleasant or not good enough as a player are very subjective things so you can always find witnesses that will counter argument.

And regarding the police, it may seem over the top, but would you really pay your taxes voluntarily if there wasn't the threat of jail? The truth behind government is that they have a monopoly on violence and use it to benefit themselves.

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

And regarding the police, it may seem over the top, but would you really pay your taxes voluntarily if there wasn't the threat of jail? The truth behind government is that they have a monopoly on violence and use it to benefit themselves.

I pay my taxes because it's the right thing to do. Call me crazy, but I kind of like my municipal services.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

I pay my taxes because it's the right thing to do. Call me crazy, but I kind of like my municipal services.

I am not against services, I am against lack of choice. I am against the government wasting 95% of my dollar. You are not crazy for wanting services, I like them too.

All the municipal services, including police, courts, street ownership and maintenance, sewage etc...have previously been done with providers that competed against each other.

It may seem difficult for us to imagine how this would work. Let us take the courts for example. People cannot imagine courts being run competitively and fairly. But if you look at history you find the following examples of extreme fairness whenever the government stayed out of the way:

The law of ancient Ireland.

The legal system of Medieval Iceland.

The law of Amerind tribes such as the Comanche and the Hopi.

The law of the ancient Germanic tribes.

The Xeer, the traditional law of the Somali nation.

Roman private law.

The original basis for English common law.

European merchant law in the middle ages.

Admiralty law.

The law of the Maghribi traders of the medieval Mediterranean.

Miner's courts in the American West in the 19th Century.

Sharia law, currently used to resolve disputes between British Muslims.

The People's Courts of modern India.

Private courts for settling disputes in America's underground economy.

Private arbitration and other forms of alternative dispute resolution used to resolve most commercial disputes in America.

[golowcleff]

It’s understandable that frustration is voiced over this topic. It’s totally valid to question how an orchestra can hold an audition for a bass position and not come up with a qualified player.

However, even though 100 people might audition, it doesn’t necessarily mean the four or five players left standing in the finals meet the requirements to win the job. The multiple rounds serve to thin the herd but don’t ensure there is a player left standing that will appeal to the committee and music director enough to warrant a contract offer.

Progressing to the final round is the result of a democratic process, requiring a majority vote to advance from each round. This means that a lot of players will pass (or fail) by the skin of their teeth rather than by unanimous vote. Some orchestras (but not all) allow committees to discuss borderline candidates (anonymously) along the way, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. (Most committees try to see the glass as half-full rather than half-empty.)

When the screen is removed for the final round, it’s a new ball game. Quite often, it becomes apparent that some players who have fought through to that point really don’t have the complete set of skills or experience the orchestra is looking for. Hopefully, there will be players who meet the requirements and garner enough votes to be seriously considered. Another factor is that the Music Director sometimes has the final say, depending on the orchestra’s contract.

An efficient and fair audition should advance at least a few players through to the final round. If none advance, or say, just one advances, a collective head scratching among those on the audition circuit is to be expected.

Some of the audition lists might be on the long side. Ideally, there shouldn’t be more music than there’s time to hear over the three rounds. At least, everybody’s whose taking the audition is in the same boat…

The Oregon Symphony just hired two bass players. They obviously ran an efficient audition. All bassists should take heart from it and hopefully, the “wheels will keep spinning” with more vacant positions being filled in the next couple of years…