New Rule Proposal

[mike_v_s]

This won't win me any friends, but.....

The fact is that downloading music without paying for it translates into the artist not being compensated for their work in some measurable way. Regardless of the downloader's view of the record industry, contracts or the artists' treatement by the first two, this is a fact.

Anytime an artist produces a product with the intent of making it available for sale and another acquires this product through a means other than the artists' intent, it is stolen. Another person's efforts are not everyone's to take as they see fit, regardless of your opinions on the price.

This website is a community not only of bass players, but musicians in general. I simply cannot understand how one musician, who presumably puts effort into their art, can think it OK to acquire another musician's songs without compensating them for it.

I find the "welcome to the future/everyone does it/you can still make money playing live" arguments childish and rooted in cheap greed. How many of our members who make a living creating music have lost revenue from other members here?

I find it sickening that fellow musicians would so vehemently defend their "right" to another person's intellectual property. I would hope the people who run this website would feel as strongly about backing a musician's right to make a living.

So I suggest making the admission of stealing music an actionble offense on this website. A community doesn't allow one member to steal from another. I understand that this kind of stance might be viewed as "too edgy" with regards to membership, but to quote a cliche: what's right isn't always popular.

Mike

[Mark Latimour]

Initially I thought that your proposal was too harsh, insofar as its not the place of TB to be the moral police on behaviour. That, TB can regulate what is discussed on its forums, but to effectively penalise admissions of guilt is really a legal matter and not a TB one. TO use an example: we can't discuss illegal drug taking on TB and threads discussing it are locked. However, I would think it odd if you got an infraction for admitting in a thread that you had smoked some weed, for example. Although it might be an inappropriate topic for discussion, the mere admission of doing something illegal isn't itself against the rules.

On the other hand, I can see your point that this is a music website and we are a community of musicians. THerefore we should hold each other to higher standards vis a vis musicians rights than others. To this extent I can see why its not so much TB serving as moral police so much as it is TB looking afters its bretheran (and the 3 girls who use TB). On balance, I support your proposal (but I do think it's on the harsh side).

$0.02.

Edit: As someone who doesn't download music I haven't paid for and whose life wouldn't be affected either way by this rule change, I am half expecting an angry Canadian to come and tell me I have no standing to discuss this topic!

[mike_v_s]

Mark:

Thank you for your thoughts. I approached this with your "on the other hand" stance. If TalkBass were anything other than a musician's community, I wouldn't have suggested this. I expected the "Canadian Argument" and have a rebuttal, but I'll wait to see if it's a stcking point.

Mike

[Alcyon]

I don't think the forum admins would feel comfortable enacting this rule and enforcing it, and of course I disagree with your premise, but I understand your moral obligation to put it forward. I also have to say that while you may think me to be the lowest form of scum, your adhesion to your moral code has won you a lot of respect in my eyes in spite of the non-constructive indignation you displayed in the last thread. I think that if everybody came forward and confessed to downloading, this would be a very lonely board, and I also think that this rule would do nothing to improve the problems in the music industry besides assuaging your own conscience by covering up the problem so you don't have to see it. I also think that the majority of people on this board who download music like the artists they listen to enough to buy the albums anyway, as opposed to non-musicians who would download the music without seeing the consequences from an artists' perspective.

What's the "Canadian Argument"?

[kerryg]

I want nothing to do with "The Culture Of The Snitch". Save "being an informant" for important issues like physical violence or child abuse.

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by kerryg

I want nothing to do with "The Culture Of The Snitch". Save "being an informant" for important issues like physical violence or child abuse.

Thank you for your input.

Mike

[kerryg]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

Thank you for your input.

Mike

You're welcome. I *am* looking forward to the "rebuttal" you mentioned to the - what was it you called it? The "Canadian Argument"? - by the way. Although it's probably best if you set up your own thread for it; we want to keep the OT stuff to a minimum.

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by kerryg

You're welcome. I *am* looking forward to the "rebuttal" you mentioned to the - what was it you called it? The "Canadian Argument"? - by the way. Although it's probably best if you set up your own thread for it; we want to keep the OT stuff to a minimum.

Shortly, we are likely to be reminded that discussion isn't part of this particular forum, so I'll make this short. Since you are the second person to ask, I'll just sum up the "Canadian Argument" as one that establishes legality of downloading as a defense for it. I'm not of the opinion that legality/illegality alone makes something necessarily right or wrong. You will notice I did not reference the law in my OP. I'm operating more on the "respect for others" plane. I think that'll about do it.

Unless anything is asked to be clarified about my proposal, this will be my last post in this thread.

Mike

[kerryg]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

Shortly, we are likely to be reminded that discussion isn't part of this particular forum, so I'll make this short. Since you are the second person to ask, I'll just sum up the "Canadian Argument" as one that establishes legality of downloading as a defense for it. I'm not of the opinion that legality/illegality alone makes something necessarily right or wrong. You will notice I did not reference the law in my OP. I'm operating more on the "respect for others" plane. I think that'll about do it.

Unless anything is asked to be clarified about my proposal, this will be my last post in this thread.

Mike

Thanks for the clarification - and thanks also for the heads-up about the rules of this sub-forum, Mike, which I should have read more closely. Have a good one!

- K

[Alcyon]

Just curious why that argument is Canadian - is that because it's legal to download here but not to upload?

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by Alcyon

Just curious why that argument is Canadian - is that because it's legal to download here but not to upload?

Much less specific. It is legal in some sense in Canada, we have a lot of Canadian members, I assumed they would likely be the ones to bring up the legality in other countries, hence the "Canadian Argument".

Mike