Suggestion: PMs for deleted threads

[Petebass]

At the end of the day, if you're going to start and/or partake in dubious threads that either break or push the limits of the rules and the TB spirit, there will be the occasions where threads will be deleted. The 100% sure fire way to fix this is not to start or partake in such threads. It's really that simple.

[DigMe]

Originally Posted by Petebass

At the end of the day, if you're going to start and/or partake in dubious threads that either break or push the limits of the rules and the TB spirit, there will be the occasions where threads will be deleted. The 100% sure fire way to fix this is not to start or partake in such threads. It's really that simple.

My original point was, no, it's not always that simple. It may seem clearcut to a mod but I've had threads deleted that didn't break any rules and I was left wondering who deleted it and for what reason. I'm not the only one.

brad cook

[bassicinstinct]

It may well be "that simple" in an ideal world but, sadly, we don't live in one. Presumably, if we did, we wouldn't NEED moderators in the first place?!

We will have to agree to differ I'm afraid.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Petebass

At the end of the day, if you're going to start and/or partake in dubious threads that either break or push the limits of the rules and the TB spirit, there will be the occasions where threads will be deleted. The 100% sure fire way to fix this is not to start or partake in such threads. It's really that simple.

Well - I'm fine on the first part of that - the rules are clearly written out for everybody to find... but what's this "TB spirit" ...

How can you expect people to know what this is, if they've just joined, for example?

I agree with Brad that I've seen many threads/posts closed or deleted (not just my own) where it was not clear they were breaking any written rules.

QUESTION : Do the Mods have further guidance about the "spirit of TB" - how do they decide what this is ?

I think the point is that decisions are obviously being made with no "open-ness" about the process - it feels like it's arbitrary whether something gets deleted - that's why I feel a clear and open process, would be a big improvement and benefit for the site?

[bassicinstinct]

Yes indeed - there's the rub!!

I too have heard the TB "spirit" mentioned on a number of occasions and, as a relative newcomer myself, I have certainly wondered what exactly this "spirit" was.

Decisions which appear to made in an untransparent (sp?) way will always seem arbitrary and,as long as that is the case, it is difficult to see how they would ever be precieved differently.

I suppose that, so long as the mods are expected to excercise "judgement" in their policing of TB, their decisions/actions will always be subjective and, presumably, there are and have been threads with which some mods would find a problem and others would not?

I dunno - my brain hurts now.

[Petebass]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

... but what's this "TB spirit" ...

If you have to ask, you'll never know!

Agree to disagree alright. I've made my point, I'm outa here.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Petebass

If you have to ask, you'll never know!

Agree to disagree alright.

No, I think this is very wrong - OK I've been around here a long time - but are you saying that newcomers are excluded from knowing how things work?

This is exactly what I mean about a "transparent", objective process, as opposed to a cliquey, "behind closed doors" process that feels arbitrary.

If we are saying to all potential new members :

"If you have to ask, you'll never know!"


.. then, that is a very bad thing for TB IMO

[bassicinstinct]

Indeed.

Elitism of the very worst kind.

[Petebass]

hmmm.... Busy = Elitist?


Bruce I'm answering a question to which you already know the answer. The "Spirit" of TB is what makes people come back here. It's what makes this a site where you can ask a serious question, no matter how technical, and get a serious answer. It's what makes this place a community more than a website. And it what seperates this site from the thousands of sites out there which are useless in terms of being able to actually learn anything. If volunteering to help preserving that makes me elitist, then so be it.

[bassicinstinct]

Busy = Elitist? Certainly not!

TOO busy to communicate the TB spirit = Elitist?

Definitely, IMHO.

This is tantamount to saying " I am so busy, I do not have time to do my job." (Albeit voluntary.)

Or am I missing something here?

All, needless to say, with the utmost respect.

[paul]

Well this is interesting I think that in all the moderators do an exceptional job here, and the reason TalkBass enjoys the success it does to day is in large part a result of those judgement calls made by mods, to reign in out of control threads, to 'take them out' before they end up creating more enemies from former friends, etc. A moderator who's been around long enough will develope an ability to recognize when a good thread is headed on the road to bad, and in many cases closing or deleting a thread 'preemptively' is the best course of action even if no rules were broken yet. In many cases its a matter of keeping a forum clean and consise - removing discussions that duplicate eachother etc.

It seems to me that in the vast majority of cases, threads are closed rather than deleted. Deleted threads remain visible to me and the mods, and frankly it's very hard for me to find a one. Most deleted threads are actually deleted by the thread's author... If a thread breaks a rule & is deleted, the author is going to get a PM from the mod with a warning, obviously. If a post is deleted for rule breakage, the same is true. So would a solution to this problem of a few 'unexplained disappearances' be to encourage moderators to close rather than delete these 'grey area' threads?

I'm hesitant to make the mods explain, and then in most cases defend via followup and reply PM's their day-to-day judement calls...

EDIT:

I'll just add that I'm not saying the mods should be immune from review. I guess I just feel that, if your thread was deleted, and you really have no idea why, is it that difficult to PM the forum mod(s) and ask? All you have to do is create a new PM, and put all the mod names in the 'To' field separated by semicolons. If you don't like the answer and would like to file a complaint that's what my email is for

[jazzbo]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I think this is the problem, that I see - are posts deleted just because they have been reported?

No.

My impression is that if enough people kick up a fuss then threads/posts will get closed/deleted - even if there was nothing actually wrong with them...?

No. Not true.

So there is nothing actually in the posts against any rules - but they have irritated enough people to make the Mods life harder - to me this is just "mob rule" and why I think we need a clear process!

Refer to the Glock thread in OT. Approximately 8-10 members complained about the thread. I spent over 2 hours exchanging PMs with about 8 members and Paul, reviewing other threads of similar content, deleting posts, sending warnings, and more more more. The thread was deemed acceptable and remained open. I worked my tail off in that situation.

If there was a clear process - it might also mean that people would be less likely to report "spurious" items , if they knew exactly what the criteria were...?

Just a suggestion anyway ....

Again, trust me. Mods, that I'm familiar with, don't act on something simply because it's been reported. It's slightly unfair to insinuate that. Reporting is a way of communicating. Mods still act based upon the forum guidelines.

[fraublugher]

heh , the glock thread .

i think the spirit of TB is about a positive impact / sharing /teaching
information and especially SHOPPING/GASING.

political/religious crap can be taken to a political/religious crap webpage instead and all can remain sated.

IMHO the glock thread is one of those , a blatant taunt if you will
that should be taken to a glock/nra webpage.

but by the same token i also believe all the beautiful basses in this community deserve to be protect by said glocks.

thieves love guitars

/rant

[embellisher]

Originally Posted by fraublugher

heh , the glock thread .

i think the spirit of TB is about a positive impact / sharing /teaching
information and especially SHOPPING/GASING.

political/religious crap can be taken to a political/religious crap webpage instead and all can remain sated.

IMHO the glock thread is one of those , a blatant taunt if you will
that should be taken to a glock/nra webpage.

but by the same token i also believe all the beautiful basses in this community deserve to be protect by said glocks.

thieves love guitars

/rant

So, you are publicly questioning the decision of the Moderators and the Forum Administrator on the Glock thread? As stated in the Forum Rules, an open Forum is not the place for that.

[DigMe]

Originally Posted by paul

All you have to do is create a new PM, and put all the mod names in the 'To' field separated by semicolons.

Ya learn something new every day.

brad cook

[fraublugher]

Originally Posted by embellisher

So, you are publicly questioning the decision of the Moderators and the Forum Administrator on the Glock thread? As stated in the Forum Rules, an open Forum is not the place for that.

naw , not at all . i was trying to describe the dicotomy of having
the glock thread , disagreeing with posts in that thread and deciding not to participate in it and not to complain with pms or what-have-you . im being a bundle of sticks about the gun problems in this thread instead of the glock thread

at the same time i believe people have the right to bare arms.

there was no malice of forthought in my post towards anyone
personally , admin or anyone else.

[paul]

Originally Posted by embellisher

So, you are publicly questioning the decision of the Moderators and the Forum Administrator on the Glock thread? As stated in the Forum Rules, an open Forum is not the place for that.

I think it's ok to grant some leeway in this suggestion box forum, however in general I'd like to try and limit 'box discussion to general policy suggestions/complaints, and submit complaints regarding specific threads through private channels.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by paul

I think it's ok to grant some leeway in this suggestion box forum, however in general I'd like to try and limit 'box discussion to general policy suggestions/complaints, and submit complaints regarding specific threads through private channels.

Thanks Paul - I'm glad we are able to have this kind of debate - keeping it to general policy of course, not specifics - I'm re-assured by Jazzbo's answers to my points and I can see your point of view about judgement calls - although the process for "review" that you mentioned in your previous post, is still not clear to me?

I think the idea about closing rather than deleting is worth considering - but I suppose there will always be some items that are too offensive/inflammatory to leave and then where do you draw the line...? Difficult!!

[DigMe]

Frau,

Please stop trying to force an irrelevant debate here. Yes, it IS irrelevant to this thread. If you want to talk about that then pony up your 20 bucks and take it to the lounge. I'd appreciate if you would delete your rant so that this thread is not derailed. Thanks.

Thanks to everyone else for not taking the (de)bait and ruining the relevant discussion.

brad cook

[Bruce Lindfield]

Agreed - although "right to bare arms" and "malice of forthought" made me laugh out loud...

Sorry - shan't digress any more!!