am i about to get shafted w/ band contract?

[daofktr]

we are a three piece alt/countryishjamband thing.
the singer/songwriter/guitar player and drummer want a contract that states how monies are allotted. no probs there. what seems to be fishy here is the s/s/g wants to be paid extra for setting up the PA, and wants there to be an extra split to pay off some equipment he and drummer bought before i got there, as well as a share set aside for 'band fund'.
i'm cool with band fund, i'm cool with buying into the band, if i become equal partner...my third, their two thirds.
i'm not cool with paying a member for doing something intrinsic to the band being heard in the first place...especially if i don't go through the equipment myself.
(this is also the guy that nitpicks us into humping their 'fair share' of stuff to and from, but is normally conspicuously absent at some strategic time when we are loading in/out.
[i always do more than my share of the loading and unloading, since i have the least stuff.])
the s/s/g also tried to hose me out of getting paid our last gig. as i was on the way to the gig, he called me and asked if i were planning on getting paid. i said 'well, duh!' he replied that since we hadn't done the contract, he thought we'd talked about holding the money until it got worked out.
I DON'T FRIGGIN' THINK SO!!!
i set him straight on that, then found out later that the drummer had nothing to do with that.


oh. did i mention that their 'alternative' plan was to pay me a flat rate per gig, whether it's a paying gig or not?
so...whether we play at a benefit or a festival (which, through our connections, is quite possible...we just opened up for a nationally touring jamband who happens to be friends of these guys), whether the band is paid $2000 or bupkis, i get paid $75 or whatever they decide...in other words, i become an employee.

i like the music, i like the drummer, i like the s/s/geet well enough personally. i just think that i'm getting set up.
am i getting shafted, or am i just a callow, feckless lad unused to the wheeling and dealing of the music cesspool?

[brianrost]

If one member supplies the entire PA, it's not uncommon to give him an extra percentage to cover the expense of hauling and maintaining it.

[Freddels]

If you're an employee then you get paid for rehearsal time too (retroactive). And I would increase that upward from $75.

[ntimkovich]

it definitely sounds to me like they are wanting to hire you as a bass player, rather than letting you in as a full member of the band. if you're OK with it, fine. if not, then you deserve a percentage, rather than a flat fee.

as the PA guy in all my bands, i understand his position of wanting a little extra for his time and PA gear. i think that is really up to you (i don't ask for extra money, but maybe i should ) one solution would be to think of his work with the PA as "sound guy" work, and they usually get paid a flat fee for each gig. i usually don't pay any sound guy more than $100 a night, depending (it's usually $50, but i play in a substandard market).

i think it's a very tricky subject to draw up a contract that splits the percentages unevenly. part of me thinks it could be fair, but i also think that as time goes by it's going to be more trouble than it's worth.

to each his own, but tread carefully, especially if you are friends with your bandmates. money will ruin friendship in a heartbeat, even more so in the high-ego environment of music.

good luck.
nick

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Sounds inspiring.

If he (s/s/g) just wants to make money, let him. With or without You, that's entirely up to You.

IMO if You are an employee, You just play and get Your mutually agreed percentage of the cake after the expenses. Sounds like a day job to me = not fun. You'd be leaving shortly, I'd bet. Unless You play 5 gigs a week and made a good deal. But easy to quit, no hassles.

Bein' an equal partner in a situation like that, sounds almost as bad. Been there, lost about 2k in equipment when I quit. Lost a couple of friends too, and that really hurt. The problem is the split when You leave.
Has its advantages though and that's what I'd recommend.

As for us, I set the PA when we are on a gig (it's mine anyway) so I can relate to the person that handles that part in Your band. But rest of the band (2 or 3 guys) hauls that ~600 kg of amps, cabs, wedges, racks, lights etc. wherever I tell them to, so it's equal that way and I'm very happy with that. They also help with the "easy" stuff, lightbars, mics etc. I wire everything. It takes us about 1/2 to 1 1/2 hours to set the stage up depending of the size of the rig. Im always the last to finish, but I don't mind. We don't gig that much, it's a hobby / therapy thing to us all, so we just have a band fund for the equipment and whatever comes along.

One thing I mind though. My "boozing" is limited to one beer during the show, so take a guess who drives the van back and forth to every single gig. That SUCKS, big time.

To me, Your situation doesn't sound too good and that's a bummer, playing in a band should be fun, not a lead sled. Besides, the audience notices quickly if something is wrong.

But that's just my 2 cents.
Take care.

Regards
Sam

[Depth_Charge]

I'd ask for a copy of the contract and seek some legal advice as to whether the contract is in your favour, or at the least seems normal for the industry.

Whether you feel it's OK to give up an extra share of money because someone chooses to own a PA (and in doing so actually makes things easier for themselves and the band), thats up to you. The only time I would was if it was a band purchase and we all agreed to pay the purchaser back otherwise it's a choice the owner made to bring that one, and if they are demanding my money surely they understand how demands work and respect my right to disagree if I do

[SteveC]

I think it's fair to have a share go to whomever is supplying the PA. You have to store it, haul it, maintain/repair/replace/update, etc.

I am fortunate in my current bands as we split it all pretty much even. In the past I was is a situation where I'm not sure what went on. In that case, I was basically a hired gun and wish in hindsight that I would have just aksed for $X no matter what the band was getting.

I'm kind of a hired gun now as I'm not really consulted on things like repertoire, but we are all taking an even split so I'm fine with that.

I sometimes think you're better off just being a "hired gun" no matter what. Get $X no matter what and be happy. Sure there will be gigs where an even split might pay you more, but there are probably more where it won't.

Money and PA are probably the 2 issues that split bands. It's tough if you are friends or starangers.

[daofktr]

thanks, all, for yer collective wisdom!

i have no probs with the theory of the owner of the sound/runner of the sound getting a bit more, except for two things:
1) i don't go through the PA...it doesn't handle my signal for crap.
2) the guy doing it doesn't know jack about running it! he fights that damned thing every single time, and he spends 45-60 minutes a gig trying to get it to run. i have a problem with reimbursing them for equipment they bought prior to me joining, not to mention paying for their education!
this is the setup: 1 vox mike, 4-5 drum mikes, 1 geet amp mike, two monitors, two speakers.

i have no probs in learning more about the system...i know less than jack.
this would bypass his demand for an extra cut, btw.

i also have no probs in putting in my third of the pie, and they have no probs with having me be a shareholder. i guess what i have a prob with is...no matter what, i would be taking home the least, even after paying in my share.
and...there's still the matter of the geet trying to have me not get paid the last gig, but have the money go toward the band fund to pay for their equipment, all the while lying to me about how 'we' were talking about it, but the drummer didn't know squat about that.
i don't like being in a band where i can't trust someone, at least to a certain level, and, quite frankly, i am the poorest member. i need this money to live, as i don't have another source of income right now.

the initial terms were stated as being:

30% off the top of any gig money for band fund,
$100 a month dues for rent, electricity, etc. (the bldg. is rented by the drummer and his father. they own a business. i can see contributing for rent and such.),
drummer and geet getting extra cut per gig for repayment of equipment they bought, in the guise of running sound.

my math ain't too good, but that seems to leave a pretty shallow cut for me.

if i'm being naive, greedy or stupid, then i will learn better. i still don't like feeling used.

oh, yeah...i've been in this band for months, now. this is happening in a rush, after a few hints, instead of coming out as a whole picture when asked to join.

[topper]

Whether you go through the PA or not isn't really relevant. The PA is required to hear the whole band, which is why people are there in the first place and why you're getting paid at all. If you do your share in setting it up and tearing it down, that negates their claim to more money for running the PA.

If they're looking to get reimbursed for the money they spent on the PA, that should be a limited time thing. Once they get their money back the PA belongs to the band and 1/3 of that PA is yours. You're essentially working off your share of the PA cost by taking a lower cut at the gigs for a while. If the PA doesn't belong to the band, then it's just their PA. It belongs to them. The band breaks up they keep it.

I'd suggest the "band fund" cut go towards paying off the PA so you get that out of the way as fast as possible.

It doesn't sound to me like you need a contract. It sounds like your mates don't think you're pulling your share of the weight. I can't tell you whether or not this is true, but you need to be honest with yourself about it.

[daofktr]

the problem hasn't been with me not doing my share. i've been doing around half the load-in/load-out (the drummer and i both have physical issues...i don't think the geet does). i've offered to learn sound, which will prolly happen. i've dealt with the geet acting like a cross between a fourth grader and a pop warner coach.

my biggest concern, again, is that i think the geet is not trustworthy in re: money.
he has been the quickest to kvetch about who does what, and the quickest to try to get me to agree to stuff that doesn't seem right, like not getting paid our last gig.
however, i will see how the negotiations go. if the same tendency shows, then buhbye.

(also, the PA is not for hearing the whole band, but for hearing 2/3 of it. that being said, i'm cool with buying into the bidness. i do believe in sharing the risk, sharing the reward.)

again, thank you all for your help!

[need4mospd]

I'd have a problem paying for equipment that was already purchased. When the band breaks up, the guy that keeps the gear makes out with gear AND your money. Good deal for him. Make sure you ask them what happens after you've paid $500 towards gear and you have to leave the band for unforseen reasons(job, family, etc...).

I don't mind paying for the extra setup and running of the PA, though don't expect any help from me if someone is getting paid to do it.

[Mickey Shane]

I wound up being a bassist employee one time. I quit. I'm equal partner in the band I'm in now.

Never have a band fund for equipment. Have individual ownership of all equipment. If you need to buy some PA stuff, buy used, you can get your money back later.

Write off your purchases on schedule C at income tax time. Play above the table.

[Voltaren]

Never have a band fund for equipment. Have individual ownership of all equipment. If you need to buy some PA stuff, buy used, you can get your money back later.

Mickey has it right, Do not contribute to a band fund, your band is not like death and taxes, it will end or you will leave, sure as a bear craps in the woods you will not get a dime.

As for paying for any of the existing P.A. gear, did you have a choice on what gear was bought? Do you want ownership of perhaps a sub-standard P.A. Are they going to contribute to any upgrades in your bass gear, You infer that it is not even up too d.i 'ing you bass.

As for payment, IMO all payments should be equally shared. It's just going to end badly if you don't, A friend and bandmate getting paid extra to do the sound, thats a joke.

Whats this about paying for rent, you were not very clear on why you have to contribute to that, do you live there or something? sounds suss.

Just how much does this band earn a month anyway? To sign any kind of contract it would want to be in the thousands.

You might like the geet but I have the feeling he does not like you, who knows, he might have good reason

[NickyBass]

I always hated the idea of buying equipment as a band. I don't think anyone should pay for my gear, and I don't think that I should pay for anyone elses. Why is a bassist expected to spend thousands of dollars, but singers can't buy there own PA? Should you get an extra cut for setting up your rig? Should the guy who booked the gig get an extra cut? What about the guy who drove, or who does the mailing list? How about the guy who's in charge of updating the website or myspace? There are alot of things that need to get done. I think that, if it's a democracy, then there should be no extra fees for doing work to further the band. Gas money -- yeah, whoever drives should be reimbursed.

I've gotten burned in the past. Most of my recent projects have been all instrumental, so I don't really have to worry about the PA situation. Also, most places around here provide sound.

In the end, it's up to you. Weigh the fact that these guys are crazy with the enthusiasm that you have to play with them.

[tmw]

In my previous band, I owned all my bass and keyboard gear and the monitor system for the PA. When I left the monitors went with me. Prior to that we split all expenses and proceeds equally. As members came and went, they took what they brought and nothing more.

All money (Pay less Expenses) was settled before load-out on the final night of a gig.

It helps that I am an Accountant, but more importantly we communicated about ownership issues up front. The only contract we had as a group was between us and our manager. The only thing I would call a band fund, was for the equal sharing of expenses to and from the gig, or if we had to rent lights and/or sound equipment (Expenses).

To date I have been in three bands that rented rehersal space, in each and every case I asked to see a copy of the lease agreement. I did not care if a member was renting space from their mom or dad, I needed something in writing. CALL ME ANAL, but since we never made enough money for me to quit me day job, what I made I plowed back into my equipment. I'll pay my fair share for rent and electric, but I get a key to the space as well.

Good luck with your situation, based on what you've indicated it sounds like its going to take some serious communication.

[Baird6869]

If the band bought an expensive PA, there is no reason you shouldn't help pay for it. BUT, I would ask to see how much it cost and if they bought it over time, what the payment is. If the band makes $4000 a month, there are 4 of you (as an example) and the PA is $400 per month.... it should cost each of you $100 per month to pay off the PA. At least this is how I have done it in the past.

Also, if you get into a situation like I did where the guitarist says his 3 Les Paul Standards that HE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED TO HAVE were expensive and you need to help pay for them, tell him you need 3 Foderas (a 4, 5 and 6 string) and want the band to pay for them too.

BTW, i also have guitar equipment and I lend some to one of my guitarists. He is crystal clear on the fact that I get EVERYTHING back if we break up.

[mcbassdude]

My two cents

In my band I do 98% of all the bookings, built and maintain the website, design all of our promo material and purchased and maintain the lighting.
We work 10 to 12 shows a month and every member makes at least $100.00 minimum for club gigs and alot more for private functions. Alot of work and hours goes into booking a band.

Another member has purchased all of the PA, about 7K worth of gear. Although we help set it up and strike it down, he is left to put it in his truck from home and put it away after a gig by hisself and maintain it. We run everything thru our PA i.e. all guitars are mic'd, bass direct, kick drum etc. so everyone is using the PA

Two other members simply bring their own gear and show up where the gig is.

Now with that in mind does an equal split seem fair to everyone involved?

Two people have done the lionshare of work that it takes to get and keep a band working. Like any business those who work harder are entitled to be rewarded.

Now with that said if someone was asking me to pay a portion of their Musicians Friend bill to pay off gear, I would want a percentage of ownership in that gear. On the other hand if someone was getting a bit more off of the top to cover maintainence and the extra work hauling and storing the gear I could not begrudge them and they would seem to me to be entitled to a few extra ducets to cover cords and the like.

If I hire a sub or a sideman for a gig, I never discuss how much the gig is for. I simply ask someone if they would like to play said gig for x amount of money, and they either agree or decline.
Most musicians I know are happy as clams to make $100 to $200 for a gig.

In your case you're being asked to sign a contract and to my ears that says it is up for negotiating and you should all sit down and discuss what is an equitable split for all concerned and what you are willing to show up for. Mybe a percentage of the take would be best. Maybe you're entitled to a 20% cut (assuming it is a 4 piece) of the take. Then if the gig pays more you get more they get more eberyone is happy.