Am I Being Unreasonable?

[BritFunk]

My friend,

Originally Posted by Muttleybass

You say you don't like drama. It would seem to me the only drama you're creating is putting up with the current drummer. Life's to short to waste it on people who aren't on the same page.

Hadn't really thought of it that way. You're exactly right, of course.

Many thanks,

Kurt

[malthumb]

I only have one question......

Can your current drummer sing? If so, bring in your new drummer and put the current guy on a mic. If not, bring in the new drummer and tell the current drummer he is welcome to attend your gigs. Hell, buy him a drink.

Either way, new drummer.

You have to be willing to choose between the short term misery of dealing with a guy you just fired or the long term misery of dealing with the fact that you didn't fire him.

[northernmonkey]

Break up or quit band. Leave it a few weeks, then invite guitarist to join you and the drummer in a new band, with a different name.

That way, you arent kicking him out the old band, just starting a new one, into which he isnt invited

[bumperbass]

In my past three bands, the drummer is the one who thinks he can just 'throw a beat in there'. Nevermind that you learned all the accents that make the song what it is....bass-wise AND vocal-wise! I've come to the conclusion that most drummers don't practice. We bass players need capable drummers. Anything less, and playing out is like digging a ditch.
I think you know what the answer is.
Oh, for my opinion, you're not overreacting. You're underreacting.

[msaone]

Talk to the guitarist. My knee jerk reaction would be to dump that drummer regardless of another one waiting in the wings.

YOU WILL NOT CHANGE HIS PRACTICE HABITS.

He's been that way for years. A stern talking to isnt going to get this guy to all of a sudden want to move his drums set them up twice and practice everyday, and all that extra work isnt going to help him be on time either.

[mcnach]

Originally Posted by BritFunk

Folks, I am not normally one to seek advice - not to say that I "know it all" by any stretch, but after playing bass for almost 28 years I have been around the block a time or two and have a pretty fair handle on most situations I encounter as a musician.

I currently find myself embroiled in a situation that is somewhat perplexing. Oh, sure, I know what my initial knee-jerk reaction is, but I want to be sure I am being reasonable and not overreacting to the problem.

Backtrack a few months - I get a Facebook message from a band wanting me to audition on bass. I learn the five requested songs, show up at the guitar player's house and burn up the audition. No worries. A couple of weeks later the lead singer leaves the band - long story short, he is kind of a tool and an violent alcoholic. The guitarist, drummer and I soldier on with me on lead vocals. I'm not thrilled by the additional responsibilities, but I'll deal - the guitarist is a great guy and we see 100% eye-to-eye on material and work ethic.

Here is where the problem begins: the drummer.

From the first rehearsal (scratch that - even from the audition) the drummer struck me as being laid back, which I normally don't mind. Trouble is, he is laid-back to the point of laziness. I was concerned during the rehearsal that he was leaned back on his drum throne, back against the wall, slouched over playing. The guitarist explained it away that he was just tired from his job, and I bought it.

As it turns out, this was the just the first warning sign.

My biggest troubles with this drummer, summarized:

- He shows up for rehearsal without knowing the material. he expects that he should be able to "wing it". His drums are stored at the guitarist's house where we rehearse, but if we aren't all together rehearsing he doesn't touch them - he doesn't take them home or stop by to practice on his own time, even though the access is always there. We are still working on simple songs we started off with months ago and he isn't getting any better at them.

- He is late for every single rehearsal, even if he is the one that sets the practice time.

- He is impossible to keep on-task during the few gigs we have had - he will get into a conversation with members of the audience while he is on stage, in the middle of a set. He will constantly ask, "What song is next?" even though he has a printed set list I have provided by his kit. He will want to change the set list he approved, on stage, during a show, and is perfectly willing to stop the show to argue about it.

- This one is a good one - the last gig we did was a benefit show for a drummer who recently passed away - we only had a half-hour to play. Our drummer actually took a bathroom break mid-set with only one song left in our time slot - there is nothing quite as awkward as standing on stage in front of an expectant crowd unable to continue until the drummer gets back from the little boys' room.

I could go on and on, but you get the general idea. He won't take his (four-piece) kit home because "it's too much work", won't stop by the guitarist's house to practice (even though the offer stands and the guitarist would love the opportunity to rehearse with him more), and doesn't have another kit to play on.

The flip side of the story:

The guitarist and I get together at least once a week for 4 - 6 hours to work up material - this is in addition to any regularly-scheduled rehearsals.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't take at minimum 45 minutes to an hour to work on learning songs and to push my technique/theory.

The guitarist rehearses at minimum an hour a day.

I download the song lyrics to learn. I set up the Dropbox we use to share the songs over the web so everyone is working off of the same version. I pitch-correct anything in dropped tuning so we don't need to retune or keep spare guitars/basses handy for learning. I learn my bass parts and vocals and have them down cold for rehearsal.

I provide/transport/setup/teardown the entire small PA system in addition to my bass rig for rehearsal and gigs.

No kidding - I practice more in a month that the drummer does in a year. That is in no way an exaggeration - in actuality it possibly somewhat understated. His time feel is atrocious - the tempo changes all the way through the song.

Last week the guitarist and I had enough - we took the drummer to task for wasting everyone's time, since he was showing up unrehearsed for every practice. I'm not asking the guy to be the next Neil Peart, just to know the songs. It's three and four-chord rock and roll - I'm not asking him to play Dream Theater.

The drummer was furious - he is "confident in his abilities" and has "always learned songs at practice" in past bands. I told him that while that might work in a high school garage-rock band, we didn't have that option - I live 45 minutes away from he and the guitarist and I work two jobs. I just don't have time to wait on him to learn the songs *at* practice.

He won't acknowledge that any sort of problem exists with his playing or his work ethic. A couple of my drummer friends tried encouraging him after our two disastrous gigs and he unfortunately took their encouragement as high praise.

He is basically a really great guy from the standpoint of being a friend, but as a drummer he is one of the absolute worst I have ever worked with.

Fast-forward a bit - for New Year's Eve my wife and I had a little party for friends - nothing lavish, just pretzels, punch, etc., and everyone brought additional snacks, etc. She was wondering if my guitarist and I would provide some live music for everyone for fun. On a whim, I called a drummer friend of mine that I thought might like to jam, thinking he was already in another band but might have the time and inclination. As it turns out, he doesn't currently have a band, loved the idea of playing together, loved the material we had chosen, showed up early to set up his kit, knew the material perfectly with only a few day's notice, and played two incredible sets with energy and enthusiasm. The guy is 51 (the guitarist and I are both 43, BTW) and has an incredibly supportive wife and family (his son is first-chair percussionist at the local high school). He practices every day and is like a human metronome - he and I lock in with a precision I forgot that I could have with a drummer.

This all said, my obvious knee-jerk reaction is to fire the current drummer and hire the other guy. To my way of thinking, this isn't rocket science - right now I *dread* rehearsals, and I already told both the guitarist and the existing drummer there is no way I will book another gig until we have our act together.

My questions for you, my bass-playing brethren, are these:

Am I overreacting to the drummer's apparent lack of interest in improving individually and as a band?

Given the situation I described, what would you do?

Is there something I can do to possibly impress upon the drummer the depth of the problem in such a way that he might come to the realization of how serious a problem the guitarist and I think this is?

Here is my other problem - I don't enjoy drama. In fact, I loathe it. I play music for fun, I grant you, but I practice *hard* so when I step on stage I can relax and tear it up without being nervous. None of us have any aspirations of being the "next big thing", but the guitarist and I are conscientious about how we sound and how we are perceived by the audience and the venue management.

Anyone care to share their observations? Have you found yourselves in similar situations in the past? How did you deal with it, what was the result, and in retrospect how might you have handled things differently?

This is weighing heavily on me right now - I hate being perceived as a "bad guy" by our existing drummer (he and the guitarist have a ten year history of jamming together), but I just don't see myself lowering my work ethic to indulge his laziness, nor do I see him raising the bar for his own practice habits. Any advice you folks could provide would be appreciated!


Sincere thanks,

Kurt

I was in a similar situation with a singer, only the singer was not really lazy, he was on time... he was just... not very good at all and he was making us sound bad.
I got rid off him. It did not fel good, because the guy was nice... and he was hurt. But I was trying to put together a decent band and he was just not good enough. It took us another 6 weeks, but we found an incredible singer and frontman. That was back in early 2009. Within a couple of months we started gigging and never looked back.

To me it sounds you should really get the good drummer.

If your current drummer is clearly holding you back, and he is clearly unwilling to put the effort required to get the band moving forward... there really is not much to ponder.

[amoodymule]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

Break up or quit band. Leave it a few weeks, then invite guitarist to join you and the drummer in a new band, with a different name.

That way, you arent kicking him out the old band, just starting a new one, into which he isnt invited

+1!!!

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

Break up or quit band. Leave it a few weeks, then invite guitarist to join you and the drummer in a new band, with a different name.

That way, you arent kicking him out the old band, just starting a new one, into which he isnt invited

That's one of the more weasely, cowardly, passive-aggressive "solutions" to be suggested regularly in this forum.

No. Just no...

MM

[denhou1974]

You need to speak with the guitarist first to make sure you're both on the same page about this guy. If you are then you need to sit down with the drummer and let him know that he isn't on the same page. Try not to lay blame, just because you want something different out of the band doesn't make him wrong.

If he quits, then you're good. If he decides to stay then give him only one week to get his act together. Be professional about it though. Even the guys who 'suck' usually are networked and you don't want to burn any bridges.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

That's one of the more weasely, cowardly, passive-aggressive "solutions" to be suggested regularly in this forum.

No. Just no...

MM

Sometimes it's the most practical. In a situation where the problem member is an owner of the band or materials, it may be the only solution. You can't fire an owner, and doing anything short of compensating the owner for what's taken would be theft.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by BritFunk

I hate being perceived as a "bad guy" by our existing drummer (he and the guitarist have a ten year history of jamming together), but I just don't see myself lowering my work ethic to indulge his laziness, nor do I see him raising the bar for his own practice habits. Any advice you folks could provide would be appreciated!

My best advice is to quit worrying about being the "bad guy." You AREN'T the bad guy, the drummer is. These people are always trying to blame someone else for their inadequacies.

Kick him to the curb and work with the new drummer with a clear conscience.

[Stewie26]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

If all the context you've provided is correct, the answer is "no". If anything, you may have suffered this particular fool for far too long already.



Are you kidding? Do you really have to ask?

FIRE HIM!



No. If the guy's only remaining motivation is fear of losing his job, that's just not good enough. The battle has already been lost. For whatever reason, you apparently haven't realized it quite yet. At least not until now.



Unfortunately, drama comes with the territory. You can either deal with it, or (continue to) suffer the alternative. Your choice.

IMHO, the most important thing at this point is to make sure that you and the guitarist see absolutely eye-to-eye on this matter. If you don't, you've got potential problems that are bigger than just a lame drummer. But if you do, then the course seems clear:

1) See if the party fill-in drummer is available and interested in taking the job. Have that discussion with him - along with your guitarist. If he can step in, and be everything you wish your current drummer was, but isn't, then HIRE HIM! If he isn't ready for the job, then start auditioning new drummers - now.

2) Fire the current drummer. Do it ASAP. Do it in person, with your guitarist also in the room, lending support. No need to get into a big row about it. If drummer boy doesn't "get it" by now, he never will anyway. Make it quick. Make it businesslike. Make it final.

Good luck,

MM

This. Well written and perfectly stated.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

No. Just no...

+1

I've NEVER had this approach turn out well. I'd rather them be mad at me for being a man and telling them the truth to their face than have them mad at me for being a weasel.

[BritFunk]

My Friends,

While I agree that the "breaking up the band and reforming" bit would be WAY easier in the short run, it does smack of being cowardly (at least in this situation) and that's just not me.

As far as giving him a week to get it together - he couldn't get his basic technique back in a week, much less do that and learn the material. There really isn't a snowball's chance he can do it, and truthfully to give him the option would be giving him false hope and be unfair to him. Methinks it's best to be as honest as I can and cut him loose.

I have been trying to give the guitarist some space to handle this since they have the long-time friendship, and he and I agree 100% there is no hope for the drummer, and that the time for compromise is pretty much over. My current intention is to meet up with them both this weekend and lay it out kind of like this: We think there is a problem with the drummer, the drummer thinks there is no problem, and we are all likely equally inflexible in our opinions. As such, we will be parting ways as bandmates with hopes of maintaining whatever friendships the drummer will permit.

That said, I am not optimistic about the prospects of remaining friends, at least not in the immediate future. Thus far his reactions to anything we have tried to discuss have smacked of angry teenager. Amusingly, his wife has been posting on Facebook about how angry she is with a situation (this one, obviously, where her poor baby is being done wrong) and how she would like to punch someone in the face. It would make for hilarious reading were it not so juvenile and sad.

----
Kurt

[malthumb]

Originally Posted by BritFunk

..........My current intention is to meet up with them both this weekend and lay it out kind of like this: We think there is a problem with the drummer, the drummer thinks there is no problem, and we are all likely equally inflexible in our opinions. As such, we will be parting ways as bandmates with hopes of maintaining whatever friendships the drummer will permit.

.....

----
Kurt

Boy, would I love to have you wear one of these for that meeting!!



All kidding aside, I do wish you the best. You are certainly doing the right thing, but sometimes right is harder than just getting along.

[BritFunk]

My Friend,

Originally Posted by malthumb

Boy, would I love to have you wear one of these for that meeting!!

Yeah, it's gonna s-u-c-k for me. Still, I am sure it *will* be quite a show for anyone watching close by...

----
Kurt

[NWB]

Are you being unreasonable?

Yes, you are.

For continuing to play with this schmuck as long as you have.

Now, just think of the heaps of fun you'll have with the new drummer.

[denhou1974]

Originally Posted by BritFunk

Amusingly, his wife has been posting on Facebook about how angry she is with a situation (this one, obviously, where her poor baby is being done wrong) and how she would like to punch someone in the face.
----
Kurt

This changes things. Considering this bit of information I take back my previous suggestion. Fire this guy/his wife immediately.

[tmdazed]

Originally Posted by BritFunk

My Friend,



Yeah, it's gonna s-u-c-k for me. Still, I am sure it *will* be quite a show for anyone watching close by...

----
Kurt

Look at it this way , I got fired from a band by a good friend (admittedly i was not terribly enthusiastic about the project) but none the less it hurt to be fired by him, he gave me some callous but good advice, "you and i will always be friends, but this is show "Business" not show friends" and while close to my bandmates, thats the view I took when we fired the old guitar player, and yes we are still friends

[Marginal Tom]

The bit about the drummer's wife suggests that a new band name might be in order. But otherwise, I'm with all the other posters - hire the new drummer and enjoy life.