Am I getting screwed on $?

friskinator · #1 03-13-2011, 07:25 AM

I'm currently in a cover band where I'm not exactly happy with the money I'm being paid for each gig - maybe my fellow TB users can help me decide if I should continue with it.

First, a little back story. All the guys in the band are hired guns except for the singer, since he started the project and handles the entire business/booking end. I, along with the drummer/guitarist, get paid 10% of gross for each gig (after our booking agent takes their 20%, of course). Therefore, if we clear $2000, I get $200, as do the the guitarist and drummer. The singer claims he pays himself the same 10%, and the rest goes towards "expenses." We do a decent amount of traveling, but even after those expenses are paid (gas/hotel), I believe the singer's pocketing a lot more money than he claims to be.

The only consistent monthly bills that we have are the van payment/insurance, and the singer handles paying those since it's his business. I'm OK with him making an extra percentage due to his involvement on the business end, but I still feel like I should be making more on local shows where we don't have any expenses. I just feel like I'm busting my ass for not nearly enough money.

Thoughts?

Stinsok · #2 03-13-2011, 07:34 AM

Sounds decent if you are paid on the gross and not don't have to come out of your pocket for any other expenses than your own. Not siding with the singer, but it is "his" business and your are a hired player.

anonymous02282011 · #3 03-13-2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friskinator

I'm busting my ass for not nearly enough money.

Welcome to be being a working musician.

The only way you'll really know if the singer's pocketing $$ is to ask him/her to look at the numbers. Otherwise, given the information you're providing, you're speculating.

Otherwise, you could simply ask for a raise.

friskinator · #4 03-13-2011, 07:50 AM

True, I'm only speculating that he's pocketing money. And he isn't the type of person that would take kindly to me asking to see the numbers, knowing his personality. I've asked him repeatedly to raise the percentage that I'm paid, but he claims he "can't afford to."

I don't mind taking that sort of percentage on the out of town shows as much due to the expenses, but to me it's not unreasonable to have the percentage raised on the local gigs where we don't have to travel. Also, we book a lot of local stuff without our agent (we have their permission to do that in certain situations), so that's an extra percentage we're not giving up.

It just sucks to think that I'm making minimum wage while working some of the out of town shows. If you break it down per hour (travel time, gig time, plus food expense), sometimes it's less. As a musician that's been playing 20+ years, that's a tough pill to swallow.

One Bad Monkey · #5 03-13-2011, 07:58 AM

From what I'm gathering, it looks like this:

Gross for one gig = $2000
Agent fee = $400
Hired Gun Fee (bass, guitar, drums) = $600 ($200/ea)
Singer Fee = $200 (assuming he takes same 10%)
Net for one gig = $800

Without knowing what your other fees are (the actual monthly van payment, insurance on van, etc..) it's hard to speculate whether you're getting paid fairly or not.

You could always go and ask for more when 1) it's local so no travel/lodging expenses or 2) the agent is not involved. The guy may think that by taking care of any other expenses, that he's doing you a favor (and really, that needs to be counted towards your pay, if you think about it).

However, also be ready that if the guy is already not that willing to talk about this, he may end up finding someone that isn't that concerned about it, and happy to be paid for the gig.

Joe Nerve · #6 03-13-2011, 08:03 AM

I know what it's like to feel like you're getting screwed. Sucks, BUT, a gig that's playing lots of gigs that are paying you $200 a show is a fairly decent gig. I've had similar gigs, that I complained about, lost, and wish I could go back to... fer whatever that's worth.

steveksux · #7 03-13-2011, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friskinator

True, I'm only speculating that he's pocketing money. And he isn't the type of person that would take kindly to me asking to see the numbers, knowing his personality. I've asked him repeatedly to raise the percentage that I'm paid, but he claims he "can't afford to."

I don't mind taking that sort of percentage on the out of town shows as much due to the expenses, but to me it's not unreasonable to have the percentage raised on the local gigs where we don't have to travel. Also, we book a lot of local stuff without our agent (we have their permission to do that in certain situations), so that's an extra percentage we're not giving up.

It just sucks to think that I'm making minimum wage while working some of the out of town shows. If you break it down per hour (travel time, gig time, plus food expense), sometimes it's less. As a musician that's been playing 20+ years, that's a tough pill to swallow.

If he's paying hotel expenses on the out of town gigs, he's liable to be making less than you are and its his band.

I get your point about the in town vs out of town shows, but if he's averaged both out and come up with that %, it may or may not be a fair split overall. Look at the bright side, the in town shows you're still making more per hour because you're not losing all the travel time. From that standpoint, your either already making more, or losing less (depending on if you're an optimist of pessimist..

).

No way to tell if he's screwing you on all the gigs, actually, without seeing the numbers. The 10% you get is 10% of whatever he claims the gig pays anyway. You could actually be getting 5%.

When I get mad because I feel I'm underpaid at my day job, I send out resumes and see what's out there. If I get offers that are much higher, I'm being underpaid. If I get offers that are equal to or less than what I'm making, I stop being mad and realize I'm getting paid a fair wage.

That's my advice. See if you can find a better paying gig. If not, regardless of what %cut you're getting, you're getting paid reasonably, frankly even if he's lying about the % you're getting. His band, his rules, he could just pay you a flat rate and rake in the extra on the higher paying gigs, he's actually being nice by giving you a fixed cut rather than a flat rate.

Would still chap my ass if he WAS lying about the take, of course. But the bottom line is are you getting paid enough $ to make it worth your while, or not. As a hired gun, you don't get to see the books.

Randy

sdoow · #8 03-13-2011, 08:10 AM

If you agreed to be paid that way from the beginning, then no, you're not getting screwed. As a hired gun you agree to pay and conditions, as long as that is being met there's no complaint.

Taken a step further, you could be hired for 10%, the drummer for 15%, and the wicked awesome guitard for 20%, and you would still not be getting screwed. So long as you agreed to it in the first place it doesn't matter what anyone else makes.

You can of course always renegotiate. Be sure you are worth it, and understand that he may feel like he's being hijacked if you attempt to renegotiate in the middle of a tour.

He may/should be putting any excess funds aside to help cover for the nights when you only gross $100. After paying the musicians and manager 50% of the haul, that remaining $50 won't even fill the gas tank halfway, let alone pay for rooms or food.

friskinator · #9 03-13-2011, 08:11 AM

If the singer was willing to give an extra percentage on the local shows where we don't have expenses and don't go through our agent, I'd be happier. However, he doesn't seem to be willing to even do that. I know the drummer feels the same as I do about this issue, and he's looking for another gig.

I feel like we do well enough financially to cover our monthly expenses and have enough money left for the singer to give us a little extra. I'm not exactly sure what our van payment/insurance costs, but the van will be paid off in June.

If he won't increase my percentage when the van's paid off, I'm definitely out. I've been doing this gig for awhile, and I feel like I deserve a bit extra at this point.

bassplayer8953 · #10 03-13-2011, 08:26 AM

Who pays when/if the van breaks down? Simple repairs, on the road, can run huge $$$: $500 for a water pump, $400 (or more) for brakes...etc.

Like any business owner/leader whose name is on the title, there needs to be enough profit, from the profitable dates, to cover expenses when things don't go according to plan. He takes the chances, he rakes in the extra $$$.

IMO 10% each to the hired guns is fair...

friskinator · #11 03-13-2011, 08:37 AM

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate it. I'll definitely weigh them all before making a decision. I know I'm lucky to get paid for any gig in this economic climate, and we stay busier than most bands I know.

I know that as a hired gun I can't make many demands, but like any other job, it'd be nice to get a little pay bump when business is good.

Nev375 · #12 03-13-2011, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friskinator

True, I'm only speculating that he's pocketing money. And he isn't the type of person that would take kindly to me asking to see the numbers, knowing his personality.

The type of person who would react poorly to an honest inquiry such as this would do so because

A) He actually IS screwing you and if that information got to all the band members it would be game over.

B) He is not screwing you, but has a deeply held belief that everyone in the band should trust each other, or at least him. And the thought that someone didn't trust him when he is doing you all such a favor would break his poor little heart.

Note: No matter which type he is, he will always try to convince you that he is B or something similar.

One good indicator that he is screwing you is he will complain a lot about people screwing him. This is called transference. You would be surprised what you can learn about a person by just listening to them bitch. Note that this is not 100%, but tend to be true more often than not.

**DougD** · #13 03-13-2011, 08:39 AM

In this day and age, id take the $200 and have myself a nice tall glass of shut the hell up

You are not in it as a full partner. so just go with it. it's a good gig to have these days.

mcm · #14 03-13-2011, 08:52 AM

quit worrying about the money and just play. if you want a lot of money, become a surgeon or attorney.

friskinator · #15 03-13-2011, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcm

quit worrying about the money and just play. if you want a lot of money, become a surgeon or attorney.

I never expected to make a lot of money playing music, but if I'm gonna work for minimum wage per hour on the travel gigs, I'll pass. Just not worth it for me anymore.

JohnMCA72 · #16 03-13-2011, 09:33 AM

The trouble with taking a percentage is, you really have to have access to all the numbers to know if what you're getting is right or not. Especially if you're getting a share of the net not gross, others that you don't have any control over are getting paid before you are & your pay is affected by factors that you can't necessarily control.

You might consider asking for a flat rate. Then, if the gig pays more, the leader makes more & you don't, but there won't be any questions about getting screwed. After all, it is his business, not yours. By taking a share rather than a salary, you're assuming part of the risk. On the other hand, you wouldn't be entitled to a larger payday for a higher-paying gig unless you had some sort of bonus structure in place.

What you need to do is figure out what's best for you in terms of pay stability vs. risk/reward possibilities.

Renaissance · #17 03-13-2011, 09:44 AM

I owned a business for 20 years and I love these conversations! Employees (you - a hired gun) love to get into the owners business when things appear good. Everyone thinks they deserve a "bonus" when the business makes a good profit on a job but you can't find any complaining when things are slim. Have you ever missed getting paid because the owner got stiffed when the check wasn't good? Do you have to come out of pocket when the van breaks down? When the heat in the van doesn't work do you pay to have it fixed or do you just complain about the "substandard working conditions"? You're getting paid a percentage of gross and not net and now you want to "see the books" because you think the owner is getting paid more than you!

If you think he isn't telling the truth about the gross pay, that needs to be addressed, otherwise you could always start your own band and take the risk yourself.

IME, IMHO, YMMV, etc......

MrLenny1 · #18 03-13-2011, 09:53 AM

That's the music business. I worked for a similar situation. Band leader was going home
with $750 a night. Sounds unfare but most musicians know a lot about scales but very little about music business.
Sounds like the singer is a smart business man.

friskinator · #19 03-13-2011, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

The trouble with taking a percentage is, you really have to have access to all the numbers to know if what you're getting is right or not. Especially if you're getting a share of the net not gross, others that you don't have any control over are getting paid before you are & your pay is affected by factors that you can't necessarily control.

You might consider asking for a flat rate. Then, if the gig pays more, the leader makes more & you don't, but there won't be any questions about getting screwed. After all, it is his business, not yours. By taking a share rather than a salary, you're assuming part of the risk. On the other hand, you wouldn't be entitled to a larger payday for a higher-paying gig unless you had some sort of bonus structure in place.

What you need to do is figure out what's best for you in terms of pay stability vs. risk/reward possibilities.

Exactly. I can only assume that I'm being told the truth about what we're making, since I'm not doing the booking.

As a hired gun, me and the rest of the players don't have a say in anything. In my opinion, we frequently take gigs that aren't worth the money when the travel time/expense is considered, but whenever I voice an opinion, the singer's response is "well, we aren't doing anything else that weekend. If you want, I can find someone else to do the gig."

Maybe this isn't the best gig for me. I work better when I have somewhat of a say in what happens, and that definitely isn't the case here.

bassplayer8953 · #20 03-13-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friskinator

Exactly. I can only assume that I'm being told the truth about what we're making, since I'm not doing the booking.

As a hired gun, me and the rest of the players don't have a say in anything. In my opinion, we frequently take gigs that aren't worth the money when the travel time/expense is considered, but whenever I voice an opinion, the singer's response is "well, we aren't doing anything else that weekend. If you want, I can find someone else to do the gig."

Maybe this isn't the best gig for me. I work better when I have somewhat of a say in what happens, and that definitely isn't the case here.

Maybe you should let him try to find another player, when a gig looks to be a dud. Of course, that's also a chance YOU take...

...agree that if the leader isn't going to share the details of the gross, he should be paying a flat rate. Then the risk is truly 100% on him. Great when it works, not so great when it doesn't. Also will keep him from booking the $%^&* gigs with an "oh, well" attitude. As long as you're getting X amount for a gig, who care if 5...or 500...people show up. (BTW, 200 sounds like a nice number for an evening's work)