am I totally unreasonable?

[Quadcam]

This may be kind of long........

when it comes to my band, I take things seriously, maybe more than I should.

Since I started the band I've had a plan and the first thing on that plan is to be better than the average local cover band, put on a show and not just stare at the floor and play covers. I want people to walk away and say "wow, that was a great show" which mean interacting with the audience and actually entertain them.

Now I'm not saying an all out kiss or alice cooper type theatrical production but keep people involved.

So the rest of the plan was/is to play popular, danceable music from a variety of genres. Mainly rock but also some new country/rock, swing, reggae and punk. I'm talkin the mainstream stuff here, swing (brian setzer, stray cats, voodoo daddy) punk (ramones) you get the idea. Also the songs we play cater to womens tastes, stuff they like to dance to.

Things have been going along pretty well with that plan in mind, but we needed a guitarist and after about 10 auditions we found one . he's a good musician but he makes me crazy. He's our age (mid 30's) but totally hyper and ADD, the guy noodles nonstop. Well be having practice and you cant hold a conversation between songs cause he wont stop screwin around with the guitar.

Now, I already had a list of songs to work on and they may not be the most exciting songs but they are popular and thats why they're on the list.
when i first talked to this guitarist on the phone I thought "wow,finally, this is the guy we've been looking for" he said "oh yeh, I can sing and I'll play pretty much anything" But now after a few weeks things seem to have changed.

when i run down the song list, he says "but why do we have to play that song? why not another song by that group?" everything is like a battle with him now. When I mention another song say Beastie Boys - Fight for your right. He says "Whos gonna sing it, thats like mostly all rap and i'm not doin rap and proceeds to do his hip hop impression" I gave him our song list before he ever tried out, it's not like I'm throwing out this big surprise. He mentions songs he thinks we should do, Blue Oyster Cult - Burnin for you, Dire Straits - Sultans of swing and honestly I dont like either of those tunes and they really dont fit with our "Party Band" atmosphere.

So when I have an idea or something for the band I send an email to the guys and I sent one with a band business plan which the bassist really liked and the guitarist didnt really say anything but part of that plan said that I am the bands originator and the band leader, as such I have final say on anything we do.

So shortly after that one day after practice he is talking about a band he went to try out for as a bassist but he really just wanted to try and pull their keyboard player for our band (I also wasnt cool with him pulling that) anyway he had asked a question to one of the band members and they said they didnt know, he would have to ask the bandleader since he runs the show.Apparently he had a big issue with this guy being the "band leader" and how that was just stupid and why does this guy have the final say.

Needless to say I took that personally, the reason I am the band leader is that I started the band, I put all the work into song lists, websites, myspace, facebook etc..the band has my name all over it, I've worked very hard on it and as such I am very picky about how things are handled.

So I do really stress that we need to be entertaining and that means movin around on stage and showmanship. Last practice we were workin on a cover of a cover, Bowling for Soup does a cover of Brittney Spears "Hit me Baby"
and we were working on that, all of a sudden this dude goes into headbangin overdrive, jumpin up and down and freakin out and when the song was done he screams "YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BRITTNEY IS SOOOOOOOO METAL!!!!!!!"
so I'm just lookin at him like what was that all about and he says "hey you said we gotta move around more"

Here is the last email I sent before all of this went down:

Hey Guys,

So heres some stuff I wanted to go over and get your thoughts on.

First of all, I'd really like to go down our song list and put everything we have right now to a vote.

Now as far as the band goes, You know when you have this idea in your head and you know exactly how you want it to go and you can pretty much see it in your mind?

Thats how it's been with the band. My vision is to have us play and really focus on entertaining the crowd, I mean not only by playing but visually, lots of interaction with the crowd, getting them really involved in the shows. theres too many ************ cover bands who just stand there and play, sometimes you have one where the singer might move around a little but for the most part the majority or bands around here are like watching paint dry. I dont know about you but I dont want us to be one of those bands

I think thats something we also have to work at along with learning the songs.I want people to see us and say WOW! that band was awesome! we gotta see them again!"

heres a list of things that I think we also need to keep in mind when it comes to gigs.

- stage presence, we need to just own the stage, move around on stage, look like we're having fun. people LISTEN to songs but they come to SEE a show
- interaction, keep the crowd involved, have em sing along, have some kind of contests like best air guitarist, wheel of *** (a wheel they can spin and win something, free drink, free shirt, etc) . loudest table, best chick dancer...just anything to keep people involved.
- The songs need to be upbeat, popular, danceable, aimed at chicks, which probably means stuff you really dont want to play but I'm pretty sure in no time we'll be at the point where we have to turn down gigs.
- tossing out free stuff, people love free stuff no matter what it is. Tshirts, Glow sticks, glow necklaces, beads, stickers,etc.
- Dress, we need to figure out out what to wear for gigs not just t-shirts and jeans. I guess thats going to really depend on the gig.


So you tell me am I being overbearing and unreasonable? Because this guy and now my bassist (because of this guitarist)are starting to act like I am.
I spoke to the bassist about maybe getting rid of the guitarist and his reaction was "I dont know what you're expecting, you really arent going to find any guitarist that wants to play that stuff, most only want to play rock and stuff with lots of guitar licks" So the bassist likes the guitarist and I'm afraid that if I dump the guitarist he's gonna pull my bassist along with him and we really like our bassist.

[jmattbassplaya]

I think a lot of people here are going to say you`re taking this too seriously...

... luckily for you I`m not one of those people.

I`m like you in the sense that I want my band to be the best they can possibly at EVERY aspect at putting on a show. This, however, has caused some problems with 'my' band in the past, so much that very intense verbal fights have happened. That said, it has actually weeded out the serious players from the ones who really only wanted to be in the band for the booze, girls, and good time. It sucks in a sense that we`re loosing some of our close friends in the band, but it`s refreshing in knowing that we are now putting together a band that will actually work hard and is willing to do what it takes to take a stab at making a name for ourselves.

In relation to your band, perhaps the best thing you can do is fire the guitarist. If the bassist splits then that`s also OK because he apparently wasn`t as dedicated as you seem to want your players to be(it`s your band after all).

[JimmyM]

Whatever else happens, the guy's right about the Britney song.

[Quadcam]

LOL, thanks, Jimmy, yeh we're covering that song but we're covering the Bowling for soup version- Just wanna see how it works. I think the chicks will dig it, if they dont we'll drop it, no harm no foul. I just got aggravated because we only have a few hours to practice once a week and instead of trying to get these songs down and tight, geeturd is dishin out sarcasm and actin like he's 12

heres the song by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yEBOShHPI

Jmatt- I do take it seriously, probably too seriously so I'm trying to lighten up a little, I just have issues. We had a break for the past 2 weeks, my wife caught H1N1 and was really ill. I didnt do anything band related that whole time, after last practice I was so frustrated that I just had no desire to play my drums at all.

We have a show in 2 weeks and after that I dont know how things will go. I'm starting to get to the point of wanting to just forget the whole band thing.

[ChrisB2]

As I was reading, I was wondering if this was a "leader" band or a "democracy" band (there are some discussions going around TB).

I was glad to see you stepped out and declared your leader role. However... the fact that you had to do that usually indicates that your would-be followers aren't following you.

Doesn't matter. IMO, it IS your band, and you can and should do whatever you feel is right for your band. If people don't like that, they can start their own band, or join a different one. Imagine you're running a business; the people you hire need to work for you, not against you. You have to stay true to your vision and desires. Problem is, you're not paying these people a salary to play in your band, so you have to give them something else. Like some say in song selection, some room to be themselves, some latitude when it comes to conducting practice, how to act, how to dress. You can't just demand that they do everything your way, no one will put up with that for free. And they are going to have to like the arrangement for this to work.

Follow your heart, be strong, do what needs to be done, but give a little too. Laugh more; the guy was probably just trying to get a laugh with the Britney routine. So yeah, lighten up a little. It'll be fine. And smile - "grin and bear it" sometimes. After all, it is just a cover band. (Sometimes I see our bandleader just smile and keep his mouth shut. I can tell it's then that he's holding back what he wants to say, knowing he can't push us too far. He's a good leader.)

I'm not saying you're too hard-line; that's for you to decide. I encourage you to do it your way, see what happens. But, over time, if you go through several members and they don't follow your lead, it's probably something you're doing. Referring to running a business again: sometimes even a good job with good pay comes with a crappy boss, and no one likes that.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[troy mcclure]

Your band, you make the rules. You had a vision, seems like a good one. Find a guitarist that wants to be in "that band". My last band, I was you, after a few months and all the guys showing up to the gigs in jeans and Tshirts, I finally gave up. I stopped booking the band and joined another band, where someone else made the decisions and just play bass. The other guys were shocked but it was better for my sanity.

[bertbassplayer]

It's fine... but get rid of the guitarist. His goals and your goals aren't the same, it seems like all he wants to do is be in a jam band and goof off... either that or he wants to be in control and will do everything he can to screw with everyone else until that happens. Either way it's not worth having the guy there, no matter how good of a player he might be.

[djembe]

To me, it doesn't seem like you're being overbearing. You laid out what you wanted to do with your band in the email. Which is have a good, solid entertaining show. Isn't that the goal you're supposed to aim for as an entertainer?

You're right about most cover bands looking at the floor and just going through the routine. That lack of enthusiasm comes through in the music as well. I think you have a good plan for a successful cover band. I'm not too much into cover bands but if the musicianship is tight and the band throws a good, high energy show, I would pay to see them multiple times. Once the word gets out that the band is fun to see, you're going to draw a crowd. Bar/club owners love that because that means more sales, etc., etc. You all know where I'm going with this....

Anyway, this dude's in his mid 30's and he's acting like a kid. I wouldn't put up with that. Pull him to the side and talk to him before you give him the boot if you really like his playing. Man, friggin' guitarist, I swear.

[Jason P Bass]

Originally Posted by bertbassplayer

It's fine... but get rid of the guitarist. His goals and your goals aren't the same, it seems like all he wants to do is be in a jam band and goof off... either that or he wants to be in control and will do everything he can to screw with everyone else until that happens. Either way it's not worth having the guy there, no matter how good of a player he might be.

I agree with this.

It sounds like you're trying to push your band to develop and progress, and it sounds like the guitar player would rather keep doing whatever is making him happy.

Time to start auditions, IMO.

[Phalex]

You and my drummer sound like the same person! He's a major P.I.T.A. when it comes to this stuff, and sometimes he really pisses me off.


That being said, you are both 100% correct.

[jellymax]

the guitarist knows the band is not right for him, so do you. however, he can be used as
a sub. you should be able to discuss this with a smile--lighten up! life is too short...

understand that these guys are allowed no input, means they are sidemen, means you
cannot be upset if they have other bands etc... long as they keep promises, which
is why you need subs

i am a sideman as well. for most sidemen, a full calendar is the best substitute for
not being allowed any input in the project. make sense?

[Steve]

So, in the interest of brevity...

"My guitard won't stroke an oar and my ship is sinking. Should I fire him?"

That would be a yes.

Having said that, what IME works best in the song list situation is this:

Anyybody can throw the veto card on a song without consequence.
Anybody can pick a tune. The stipulation being understood that it has to be a sure fire, girl pleasing, dance floor packing, party till you puke song.

There's a zillion good songs out there for that kind of band. There's no reason you can't find 40 you all can live with.

[Quadcam]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

As I was reading, I was wondering if this was a "leader" band or a "democracy" band (there are some discussions going around TB).

I was glad to see you stepped out and declared your leader role. However... the fact that you had to do that usually indicates that your would-be followers aren't following you.

Really how it happened was, I started playing drums again, decided to put a band together with my wife and came up with a plan that I think will do very well. We found a bassist and he was totally down with what we're doing then we started auditioning guitarists, had one but he was an alcoholic who didnt bother to learn songs.

auditioned a bunch more, most only wanted to play only rock or wanted to jump right into a gigging band. Found this new guy and he seemed perfect but not long after we started butting heads

Originally Posted by jellymax

understand that these guys are allowed no input

They really are allowed to have input and I put together a band business plan and said "**** is the originator of the band and the band leader however, playlist, gig and rehearsal schedules will be a democratic process, each band member will have a vote and majority rules.

When discussing potential gigs with clients members should not quote a price until the gig has been discussed between all band members and everyone has come to an agreement. "

that had to be added because the guitarist said he was talking to some guy at work who was thinking about having us play at a party at his place and wanted to know how much we charge, the guitarist tells the guy we'll probably do it for free just for exposure..... ack!@ ***

Originally Posted by Steve

Having said that, what IME works best in the song list situation is this:

Anybody can throw the veto card on a song without consequence.

Well, I dunno about that one. If they have some good reason to dump the song then yeah, otherwise I'd rather have majority vote

Originally Posted by Steve

Anybody can pick a tune. The stipulation being understood that it has to be a sure fire, girl pleasing, dance floor packing, party till you puke song.

Thats all I'm askin for, I dont care what genre it is

I guess we'll just see how things play out, I'm a non confrontational kind of person and it's been such a major PITA to find a guitarist because we live 45 mins outside of the metro area that I hate to have to start over again.

I guess we'll see how it goes, thanks for the encouragement

[xgator4u]

Originally Posted by Quadcam

They really are allowed to have input and I put together a band business plan and said "**** is the originator of the band and the band leader however, playlist, gig and rehearsal schedules will be a democratic process, each band member will have a vote and majority rules.







Well, I dunno about that one. If they have some good reason to dump the song then yeah, otherwise I'd rather have majority vote

"each band member will have a vote and majority rules."
"otherwise I'd rather have majority vote"



I don't know but does any one else see the conflict here?

On one side you say " oh yeah, they have a say, I am not a dictator, majority rules."

On the other side, yeah majority rules, as long as YOU are the sole majority.

Just something to look at my friend.

[Stumbo]

Leaders should lead.

[Quadcam]

I'm not sure how you saw that as a conflict but I think you misunderstood. what i'm saying is that if we have a song on the list and even though the rest of us are ok with playing it but one person has a reason they dont want to do the song, like they cant pull it off and it would be a train wreck then ok we wont play the song. But if it's just that the person doesn't personally like the song then it should be majority rule. In which case the song would stay.

We all arent going to agree on every song, theres a couple that I dont really care to play either but they'll work and I'll play them anyway.

I'm really not trying to run a dictatorship, I'm just trying to put a decent band together and move in a positive direction.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by Quadcam

Really how it happened was, I started playing drums again, decided to put a band together with my wife and came up with a plan that I think will do very well. We found a bassist and he was totally down with what we're doing then we started auditioning guitarists, had one but he was an alcoholic who didnt bother to learn songs.

auditioned a bunch more, most only wanted to play only rock or wanted to jump right into a gigging band. Found this new guy and he seemed perfect but not long after we started butting heads

Well, yeah, with all this in consideration, I would say it's time for him to go. My post was a little harsh, sorry.

I agree with your vision for your band. I wish the band I was in ... well, wait ... we DO have the exact same vision as you, but we just don't seem to follow through with it. In many ways, it's similar to your situation.

------------

One additional thought, after re-reading the above (kind of sticking this out there, like my first post, so I mean no offense if I make some wrong assumptions): It seems as if you only have the one guitarist; what is this guy playing exactly? I assume he's doing some of both lead and rhythm duties? If so, maybe announce you're going to look for a second guitarist to play dedicated lead, or dedicated rhythm (whichever works for you, based on his abilities), and see what happens? Maybe he'll flip out and quit; maybe he'll receed to a non-troublesome rhythm duty? Maybe he'll emerge as an awesome lead player that you have trouble reigning in, but he's worth the trouble...??

Just a thought. Good luck!

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Quadcam

Well, I dunno about that one. If they have some good reason to dump the song then yeah,

Who defines "good reason"? How about..."Because Britney Spears sux azz!"
That's plenty good reason.
Like I said, there's no shortage of songs out there. Last time I worked a band like that we rolled close to 100 songs. Every once in a while someone whould just say, Nah, and it's on to the next. It's a self limiting thing because if one guy starts to shoot down everything, somebody else will start shooting his calls down.

You're not looking for agreement, you're looking for obedience. You have to pay pretty well for that.

Good luck.

[Jason P Bass]

In my opinion, he's not looking for obedience, he's looking for cooperation.

And not getting it from the guitar player, yet, or maybe ever.

It sounds like the band arrangement is that OP is the #1 representative for business decisions (booking gigs, fees, etc.) but there is a majority vote for song selections. It's a very reasonable arrangement, in my opinion.

You might want to talk with the guitar player and say, "Look, there's friction between you and the rest of the band. (Don't blame HIM for causing it - yet.) What's going on? Are you upset with the song selection? Upset about something else? We need to solve the friction otherwise the band has to look for other guitar players. This either has to work out, or we need to find someone who will work out. Nothing personal."

You might be surprised by what he says, or you might not. Either way, you can go forward with more confidence that you investigated the situation.

[Beej]

Just fire him. Life's too short to waste time on messing around with someone's issues. There are plenty of capable musicians everywhere who will be happy to know where they stand in the band.

If this guy isn't mature enough in his 30's to know when something isn't a good fit for him then can him. He's probably feeling like he's not entirely happy with the way things are, but can't just come out and say it. Remember when your first girlfriend at age 13 decided she didn't want to go out with you anymore but couldn't tell you that so she just started treating you like s***? Same difference. Note the age. You described him as ADD, probably a pretty sound observation.

I learned long ago not to put up with this kind of crap anywhere and anytime. I have a reputation as being a bit blunt, but you know what? Everyone knows exactly where they stand with me, there are no questions. Everyone gets my respect until they do something to lose it. He's responsible for his own behaviour. If he can't understand that, why the heck should you waste any emotional energy on dealing with his issues? Sometimes people I work with question me in this, "But Beej, you're a therapist!" I answer cleanly, "yes I am, but I'm not your therapist."

Your idea, your band, your rules. Like it or lump it. You will find people who will work in that model, but you need to be super clear up front about how things work - that way there will be no surprises down the road. It may sound a bit draconian, but in the end, if everyone knows their place, you'll all be happier for it...