Am I Wrong Here?

::::BASSIST:::: · #1 10-12-2010, 01:36 AM

You may remember a couple weeks ago I discussed a particular drummer that I am working with in the band I am leading... please read below and tell me:

Am I in the wrong here?

I am using XXXX, YYYY, ZZZZ in place of names as the names are not important and after all this is the internet. No reason to drag someone thru the mud.

ME: (snippet of an email I sent out to the band today)

Quote:

XXXX, may I request that you listen and perhaps rehearse these songs before we get together next? I know drummer's often dont practice (true of many drummers I've played with) the songs without the band, but I know YYYY, ZZZZ and I will be. I believe it would really help us learn the songs faster as a band if you already had a good idea about how the songs start and stop and where the breaks are, if any. Thanks buddy. I hope you don't think I'm a 'prickly pear' by asking you this, but it would help us progress further alot. Hope you're okay with that. : )

XXXX, the drummer:

Quote:

Gee, Is this the way its going to be...you seem to be picking me out of the lineup on a weekly basis..I am not sure I am going to like that for very long....I have already listened to the songs you added except for Roll over Beethoven which doesn't seem to want to play or isn't on the other list I found....

Me:

Quote:

XXXX, I thought I put that nicely. Sorry if that upset you. I agree that I do spend a disproportionate amount of time talking to you about the drum end of things, but it has to be right. I'm sure none of us are interested in investing the amount of time and effort we do to produce a second rate result. This is the first time I've asked you to make sure you know the songs before we go into a rehearsal. All I can say is that it is obvious at rehearsals that YYYY and YYYY put the time in to learn the material. So if you have listened to /rehearsed the songs great! Sorry if I've been a bit hard on you, but I do think its part of the reason we are sounding better. If you are not happy with my leadership and/or the results produced.... well, you do what you have to do. However, I'd love it if you remain part of the band and keep working towards making awesome music.

Thoughts?

jordie65 · #2 10-12-2010, 01:42 AM

well it was a bit of a tactless move saying "I know drummer's often dont practice (true of many drummers I've played with) the songs without the band, but I know YYYY, ZZZZ and I will be"
IMO wasnt really a need to start with a generalization about drummers, no one likes being lumped into a generalization!

pnut166 · #3 10-12-2010, 01:47 AM

Um. Ouch.

onionpuzzle · #4 10-12-2010, 01:47 AM

how new is the drummer ? maybe he is a slow learner, but will kick into gear....if not, then find a new drummer (unless the entire band agrees on a level of patience)

also he may have been put off by the use of "prickly pear" which no one would ever want to be, and by admitting that you might in fact be a "prickly pear" might have scared him, or at least offended him greatly.

the last sentence was entirely a joke.

but the first one was not.

::::BASSIST:::: · #5 10-12-2010, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jordie65

well it was a bit of a tactless move saying "I know drummer's often dont practice (true of many drummers I've played with) the songs without the band, but I know YYYY, ZZZZ and I will be"
IMO wasnt really a need to start with a generalization about drummers, no one likes being lumped into a generalization!

That's a good point. However, it has been my experience.

::::BASSIST:::: · #6 10-12-2010, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onionpuzzle

how new is the drummer ? maybe he is a slow learner, but will kick into gear....if not, then find a new drummer (unless the entire band agrees on a level of patience)

also he may have been put off by the use of "prickly pear" which no one would ever want to be, and by admitting that you might in fact be a "prickly pear" might have scared him, or at least offended him greatly.

the last sentence was entirely a joke.

but the first one was not.

Yeah, I guess I was just trying to ask him to practice, to maximize rehearsals, without coming off like a jerk. Not easy to do it seems.

This drummer is a nice enough guy, chatty as hell, and is able to play well once I explain to him (sometimes multiple times) what is needed for a particular song. However, he usually doesn't "get it" right off the bat. I've played with many drummers who DO get it right away, no hand holding required. Every rehearsal with this band I spend a great deal of time 'coaching' this drummer. The point of asking him to practice is to maximize rehearsals time so that hopefully he knows the songs better and I dont to keep reminding him how the song should be played. I rarely have to do that with the singer or guitarist. I am willing to continue to do the coaching (for lack of a better word) because he IS getting it (again after reminders) and we are getting better as a band. However, if he cannot tolerate me being after him, then I guess the writing is on the wall.

Edit: The drummer is in his 50s and has been playing all his life he says. Some songs he does VERY well. We did Suzie Q. the other night and he really made that song better by the way he played it.

lowendgenerator · #7 10-12-2010, 02:37 AM

It had to be said, but I may have worded it a bit differently. On the flipside, if he think's you're singling him out, he's going to take anything you say as an attack/insult, and will be especially difficult to work with in the future. Is he still under warranty?

Shakin-Slim · #8 10-12-2010, 03:01 AM

If the drummer had problems with that e-mail, he must have a very thin skin. That wouldn't phase me. In fact, I'd walk away happy.

James Judson · #9 10-12-2010, 03:27 AM

I hire musicians to do what I can not (like play drums). I would stay away from coaching, teaching, preaching etc. Never comes out right and your wasting the other musicians time that did their homework. You can not play his instrument for him. What is left? PATIENCE, or replacement. I do supply CD's and charts to shorten the learning curve. And I routinely request weak tunes at rehearsal just to show that I know this song and you don't without pointing it out. There will always be a weak link on your team and dwelling on it will always bring bad results.

YMMV

One Bad Monkey · #10 10-12-2010, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowendgenerator

It had to be said, but I may have worded it a bit differently. On the flipside, if he think's you're singling him out, he's going to take anything you say as an attack/insult, and will be especially difficult to work with in the future. Is he still under warranty?

I agree with this. Telling him that YYY and ZZZ have their stuff together and he doesn't didn't need to be said multiple times; I'm sure it's apparent at rehearsals that is the case, and I would hope he notices without having to be told he's the dead weight in the band.

As another thought, how serious is he for this band? Meaning, is this just a hobby that if you do some gigs it's a bonus, or is he in it for the big corporate gigs and things on a regular basis? Maybe he's just not on the same page as the rest of you guys.

Step · #11 10-12-2010, 05:59 AM

I agree with the former posters that the wording in the E-mail could've been better.

I also agree that if I would've gotten that E-mail I would've been more embarrassed by the fact that you needed to send the E-mail than angry about the E-mail itself

some people just can't take heat, even if they deserve it. It's up to you to see if you can live with this fact or if you will try to find someone else.

Remarkably I had the exact same problem with a drummer once, he always ****ed practices up, even though we were a duo. He always admitted to making mistakes, but whenever I try to have a serious conversation about how we weren't improving he got defensive.

tycobb73 · #12 10-12-2010, 06:23 AM

Some people pick it up by themselves, some people do better in a band. I would have worded it:

Hey, I notice you're having issues keeping up. I value you as a band member and want to help. What can I do?

and wait for his suggestions.

PJSShearer · #13 10-12-2010, 06:45 AM

I would have had a quiet word with the drummer - please learn the material beforehand as we're wasting rehearsal time dealing with stuff which you should have dealt with beforehand. Has it been mentioned before?.

That email, which you sent to them whole Band I believe, comes over as condescending and insulting and, if it had been directed at me, I would definitely not have been "OK with that"!!

canadian_man_44 · #14 10-12-2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Yeah, I guess I was just trying to ask him to practice, to maximize rehearsals, without coming off like a jerk. Not easy to do it seems.

This drummer is a nice enough guy, chatty as hell, and is able to play well once I explain to him (sometimes multiple times) what is needed for a particular song. However, he usually doesn't "get it" right off the bat. I've played with many drummers who DO get it right away, no hand holding required. Every rehearsal with this band I spend a great deal of time 'coaching' this drummer. The point of asking him to practice is to maximize rehearsals time so that hopefully he knows the songs better and I dont to keep reminding him how the song should be played. I rarely have to do that with the singer or guitarist. I am willing to continue to do the coaching (for lack of a better word) because he IS getting it (again after reminders) and we are getting better as a band. However, if he cannot tolerate me being after him, then I guess the writing is on the wall.

Edit: The drummer is in his 50s and has been playing all his life he says. Some songs he does VERY well. We did Suzie Q. the other night and he really made that song better by the way he played it.

There are "drummers" then there are "people who play drums". This guy seems to me to be in the latter group. We have a guy like that in our P&W band. He will come into practice and ask the leader about the drum work on the intro of a song that we've been doing for 6 months. Definitely a slow learner and a "guy that plays the drums", but he is willing to practice hard and generally gets things down pat during the service....which is good....although the next practice he might mess up the same song.
On the other hand there are other questions to answer here. Does the guy have a family or other commitments? I do and I can tell you that I really don't have time when I'm at home to practice much. Sometimes I'll stay up way too late at night to go over new songs. Maybe this guy just doesn't have the time to do it with other commitments. IDK
Personally, I wouldn't have found the email to be insulting, but I'm not a drummer and like has been said somewhere before.....two intelligent drummers walk into a bar

MNAirHead · #15 10-12-2010, 06:52 AM

You were wrong.

Management 101 -- Praise in Public, Criticize in Private.

The tone of your note made you the bad guy.

I've written notes like this.. when I wanted the band to quit

MNAirHead · #16 10-12-2010, 06:53 AM

Why not take the guy outside for a smoke or for a free beer?

James A. Voss · #17 10-12-2010, 07:09 AM

Expectations are tricky in any relationship. Communication and Compromise are essential.
My best advice in a situation like this is to stay away from e-mail and get on the phone.
It must be important to you, so take the time to give him a call. You need to talk these things out.

jakelly · #18 10-12-2010, 08:12 AM

I don't think its asking too much for a drummer to know the starts, stops and breaks.

OTOH, just being in a band can and often does lead to problems in relationships between members. There always seems to be one who is overly sensitive and another who doesn't use enough tact...

brekfustuvluzer · #19 10-12-2010, 08:24 AM

in my experience, these kind of things go over much better in person. i think it's because you can gauge how they are taking the criticism and adjust so as not to offend. then you can always end with some joking around and by letting them know that you appreciate them taking suggestions so well yadda yadda. ive found that this approach tends to strengthen a relationship where as emails and text involving criticism can weaken one.

Tampabass · #20 10-12-2010, 08:24 AM

Since you asked ... If it were me, I:
1)wouldn't have had this "conversation" via e-mail; in-person or by phone is always better
2)wouldn't have sent the email to the whole band, as it comes across as an attempt to embarrass him in front of everybody. What kind of dynamic is that going to set up for the band?
3)wouldn't have included any generalizations about drummers. This is just about this guy, not all the others.
This kind of stuff is never easy, but no reason to make it more difficult with these kinds of emails.
If I had received that email, I would have been annoyed as hell.
just my $.02.