Another one of those, "What would you do?" threads.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

So let me get this straight. You don't like to rehearse. You're in a band that doesn't like to rehearse and you are complaining about not making enough money. Sounds to me like you are playing for all the wrong reasons and trying to take short cuts. Changing the band leader is not going to change this. The only way to get better paying gigs is to rehearse and gig as much as possible in order to generate a following.

Wrong wrong and more wrong. I play fill-in gigs all the time. I have done dozens of gigs where the band made well over $2000 and I NEVER MET THEM before THAT NIGHT. People who rehearse once a week and play out once a quarter are either terrible players, scared to play out, or just doing it for fun (nothing wrong with the last one either). I know a great singer/band leader around here who can't keep band members because he wants to crack the whip on them and practice ten times for every gig. It's just not worth it if you can play at all. If you can't, do the rest of us a favor and go race cars on the weekends or something. Or just wait until YOU are ready BEFORE you join a band that is trying to gig.

And taking crap money gigs (again, if you have reached ANY level of professionalism) is dumb. This BS of "getting your foot in the door" or "exposure" gigs is a thing of the past. When I started playing out in the 80's, those things worked. Why? Club owners actually MEANT it when they said "Give us a good deal the first time and if you do well we'll have you back for more money." These days, it's just a ploy to get desperate dopes like the OP's BL to go along with it and play for nothing.

Wake up guy. You're beating your head against a wall if you are still playing the game of rehearsing dozens of times and playing "exposure" gigs. You are being played, either by your band or the club owners in your market. Either that or band practice is your poker night away from the house. Period.

Either you and your band mates can both play AND do their homework for a FEW practices, or none of you have any business being there in the first place.

Sorry for the rant but people who try to get me to practice a dozen times for a stinking gig get on my nerves and Kmonk just happened to yank on the very same nerve.

[Devils Advocate]

Ahh... a juicy response to jump into.

Originally Posted by two fingers

If you can't, do the rest of us a favor and go race cars on the weekends or something. Or just wait until YOU are ready BEFORE you join a band that is trying to gig.

I think you stated this all nicely. I don't generally get involved with bands that don't have enough experience to just get out there and start gigging. And I don't think there's anything wrong with bands that need to rehearse 2X a week. They should just all be on the same page. Some of us have paid our dues and put 1000s of hours intor rehearsing in our lives. We know what we're doing. Plain and simple. Especially when doing covers, or even originals if working off of material that was previously recorded.

Originally Posted by two fingers

And taking crap money gigs (again, if you have reached ANY level of professionalism) is dumb. This BS of "getting your foot in the door" or "exposure" gigs is a thing of the past. When I started playing out in the 80's, those things worked. Why? Club owners actually MEANT it when they said "Give us a good deal the first time and if you do well we'll have you back for more money." These days, it's just a ploy to get desperate dopes like the OP's BL to go along with it and play for nothing.

Agreed 100%, but you add a point I hadn't realized. The BL is going off of his experience in the 80s and 90s. We're not kids. And I think that is at the heart of his problem. The heart of my problem is going along with it because I like to have "an open mind" and because we're gigging in his neck of the woods which I thought may have worked differently than the areas I'm accustomed to. I trusted in his confidence. I'm trying to undo all that now.

Originally Posted by two fingers

Wake up guy. You're beating your head against a wall if you are still playing the game of rehearsing dozens of times and playing "exposure" gigs. You are being played, either by your band or the club owners in your market. Either that or band practice is your poker night away from the house. Period.

I already said no to the rehearsals. It's down to 2 or less a month, and will soon be a rare happening. Cutting out completely would have been taken as a slap in the face, and our rehearsals are incredibly productive. We only work on new material, and with one rehearsal we were able to add 5 new songs to last nights show. Some of the songs were with alternate instruments too. Main reason I agreed to the rehearsals in the beginning was because I knew about 20 tunes we were doing and needed to get myself up to snuff on at least 40. I ate a little humble pie and a year later we can play about 5 hours straight of this band's music.

Originally Posted by two fingers

Either you and your band mates can both play AND do their homework for a FEW practices, or none of you have any business being there in the first place.

Not quite sure I get that, but... uh, ok. I"m thinking I probably adressed whatever you're trying to say in the other things I just posted.

Originally Posted by two fingers

Sorry for the rant but people who try to get me to practice a dozen times for a stinking gig get on my nerves and Kmonk just happened to yank on the very same nerve.

Same here. And as I said in the OP, the start of this band was a pretty dang good start. The 2 first gigs were booked I'm pretty sure the day after I auditioned, so I feel I lured into something that evolved into something it should have never become. A year into the game, it's still salvagable. That's another reason I'm not slamming the door shut so quickly.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by two fingers

These days, it's just a ploy to get desperate dopes like the OP's BL to go along with it and play for nothing.

Wake up guy. You're beating your head against a wall if you are still playing the game of rehearsing dozens of times and playing "exposure" gigs. You are being played, either by your band or the club owners in your market. Either that or band practice is your poker night away from the house. Period.

I think it's primarily younger musicians that get caught up in wanting to play out so bad they have no problem playing for free even or being taken advantage of by venue owners. Like the owner that's telling them how great the band is, then laughing behind his back as he is keeping all the cash generated from the evening.

Exposure, if nobody offers you a decent paying gig from playing the freebie gig, then there was no exposure.

Blue

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

I already said no to the rehearsals. It's down to 2 or less a month, and will soon be a rare happening.

If you don't have good promo materials yet to help w/ agency booking, you might treat one of your low-paying club gigs as a chance to get some good performance video taken for the band. (While you're all cleaned up, it's also a good time to get some band promo pics taken.)

Book the place you currently play that has the best looking stage and lights, push to get as many people out to the show as you can, dress up a bit, and hang fire. Assuming your singers are strong and your songbook is large and bookable, a quality promo video is one of the best booking tools you can have (after client word-of-mouth) for landing better paying gigs.

[4dog]

Maaan i think i was transported back in time ,,, this thread is massive deja- vu,,

[Flyingfrets]

Originally Posted by bluewine

It must be a regional thing. Are you a cover band, because in Milwaukee the agencies will not touch an originals band.

blue

Yes, we're the "band specific cover band" you pegged in another thread . And though it sucks, I understand agencies' reluctance to book original bands. We all know what it bitch it is to fill a venue with people willing to drop cash on cover charge & drinks to listen to material they don't know.

Originally Posted by bluewine

I think it's primarily younger musicians that get caught up in wanting to play out so bad they have no problem playing for free even or being taken advantage of by venue owners. Like the owner that's telling them how great the band is, then laughing behind his back as he is keeping all the cash generated from the evening.

Exposure, if nobody offers you a decent paying gig from playing the freebie gig, then there was no exposure.

Blue

Some things never change. Been there, done that 30+ years ago.

IME, 9 times outta 10, those "exposure" gigs lead nowhere. That's why I've always been leery of those "play here free Tuesday night...if it goes well, we'll book you for a paying weekend slot sometime" offers. Same concept, different name. If truth in advertising applied in this business, it'd be called "screwed again."

[Kmonk]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

Well, first let me suggest that you read a little more carefully before getting snarky.

Second, when doing covers, if the players are experienced and know what they're doing, you don't need to practice weekly to be good. You often don't need to practice at all. You can argue if you like (your experience may be a lot different than mine), but I know this from my experience to be absolutely true. And I've many times earned over $100 just by showing up at a gig with a new band, sometimes having never met some of players (it's usually by referral and I know at least 1). With no rehearsals. Sorry, but rehearsals are NOT a prerequisite for making money with a band.

For others suggesting quitting or doing things that may get me fired, aside from the money making aspect the band is pretty cool. I really do like playing with them, more than I enjoy playing with most bands. I just want to figure how to push this band out of the no pay mentality. Made a few moves today, we'll see what they yeild. Thanks for all the input everybody. It's appreciated.

I did read the entire post and wasn't trying to be as you put it "snarky". I agree that experienced players can often manage to play well without rehearsing much. I have done shows where I also made many times more than $100 just by showing up and not rehearsing with the entire band but that is the exception. The fact is that the more the band rehearses the better they become. When people put a band together and one of the first criteria is that they don't want to rehearse often, then in my opinion, they are not really committed to the project. The more they rehearse, the better they will become and they will be able to get better paying gigs. Even the most accomplished professionals rehearse prior to going on tour even though they have played the songs thousands of time. It is fairly obvious when a band doesn't rehearse very much. If you want to get higher paying gigs you must work hard to be better than the other bands in your area. There are no short cuts.

[Devils Advocate]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

I did read the entire post and wasn't trying to be as you put it "snarky". I agree that experienced players can often manage to play well without rehearsing much. I have done shows where I also made many times more than $100 just by showing up and not rehearsing with the entire band but that is the exception. The fact is that the more the band rehearses the better they become. When people put a band together and one of the first criteria is that they don't want to rehearse often, then in my opinion, they are not really committed to the project. The more they rehearse, the better they will become and they will be able to get better paying gigs. Even the most accomplished professionals rehearse prior to going on tour even though they have played the songs thousands of time. It is fairly obvious when a band doesn't rehearse very much. If you want to get higher paying gigs you must work hard to be better than the other bands in your area. There are no short cuts.

That is simply not true. I've done headlining tours with bands that rehearsed 2 or 3X before heading out, and I've practiced my ass off with bands that sucked, and never got anywhere. If musicians are talented and experienced rehearsals aren't as necessary as you seem to think they are. And there is no correlation between how much a band rehearses and their amount of money they make, or their success. None. There are many many other factors that go into that, and are far more important. I'll start with this - Who's going to make a better band, 3 crap musicians who practice 3X week for 3 months, or 3 great musicians who rehearse once?

As I stated in a previous post there are people who believe what you do, and need to do as you stated, and that's fine. And it's best if you to stick with people who believe the same. There are others that have the experience (and perhaps the skill) to do it differently, and we need to stay with like people.

You can argue, but there is no argument. I and others have experienced what you're convinced of to not be true. At least for us.

[rockinrayduke]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

That is simply not true. I've done headlining tours with bands that rehearsed 2 or 3X before heading out, and I've practiced my ass off with bands that sucked, and never got anywhere. If musicians are talented and experienced rehearsals aren't as necessary as you seem to think they are. And there is no correlation between how much a band rehearses and their amount of money they make, or their success. None. There are many many other factors that go into that, and are far more important. I'll start with this - Who's going to make a better band, 3 crap musicians who practice 3X week for 3 months, or 3 great musicians who rehearse once?

As I stated in a previous post there are people who believe what you do, and need to do as you stated, and that's fine. And it's best if you to stick with people who believe the same. There are others that have the experience (and perhaps the skill) to do it differently, and we need to stay with like people.

You can argue, but there is no argument. I and others have experienced what you're convinced of to not be true. At least for us.

Well said.

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by bluewine

It must be a regional thing. Are you a cover band, because in Milwaukee the agencies will not touch an originals band. blue

Here, you won't get any meaningful bar or small club gigs through agencies, b/c there's generally not enough money in central Virginia bar gigs to make them worth an agency's effort. OTOH, we get a lot of GB events through agency bookings, which tend to pay reasonably well. The agency bookings also have greater reach. One GB cover band I sub in gets regular work from NY to South Carolina. (Yesterday was their first Saturday off since April.) The BL is pretty together and driven, but he wouldn't be able to draw nearly as many regional gigs w/o booking help.

[ArvindJayaram]

You seem to be happy with the band, but unhappy with the pay. So your options are, as I see it:
1) Stay with the band, try and get better paying gigs
2) Stay with the band, play for free
3) Leave the band, hunt for a new band

Butting heads with your band leader doesn't make sense to me. It'll just poison the relationship between you and guys you like to hang out with. Stay or go, but expedite your decision, possibly with notice to the band that you're willing to sub till they get another bassist.

- Arvind Jayaram

[Kmonk]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

That is simply not true. I've done headlining tours with bands that rehearsed 2 or 3X before heading out, and I've practiced my ass off with bands that sucked, and never got anywhere. If musicians are talented and experienced rehearsals aren't as necessary as you seem to think they are. And there is no correlation between how much a band rehearses and their amount of money they make, or their success. None. There are many many other factors that go into that, and are far more important. I'll start with this - Who's going to make a better band, 3 crap musicians who practice 3X week for 3 months, or 3 great musicians who rehearse once?

As I stated in a previous post there are people who believe what you do, and need to do as you stated, and that's fine. And it's best if you to stick with people who believe the same. There are others that have the experience (and perhaps the skill) to do it differently, and we need to stay with like people.

You can argue, but there is no argument. I and others have experienced what you're convinced of to not be true. At least for us.

I guess we will agree to disagree but you basically made my point. Three great musicians with little rehearsal will always sound better than three crappy musicians who take the time to rehearse but the only way to become a great musician is to practice. As I stated before, there are exceptions but generally, the more you rehearse as a band the better you become. I just saw Aerosmith this summer. They have been playing the same songs for 40 years and still rehearse prior to going on tour. There are no guarantees but the fact is that the better the band is the better chance there is of making more money. Nobody is going to pay a lot of money for a crappy band. You might make a lot of money once or twice but not long term.

I have been playing for 34 years and have had some of the same experiences as you described such as doing gigs at the last minute without having time to rehearse and made thousands of dollars in the process. Those gigs are the exception. The OP wasn't talking about the one time, fill in type of gig. He said it was a band and bands that rehearse become tighter, develop better chemistry and generally have the opportunity to get better gigs.

[obimark]

IME for covers bands, once a set list has been agreed on, and all the tunes are down, NO band needs to practice more than every other week, and a gig could take the place of practice. Unless you are just not very good and can't remember the material.

Now if it is a "social" hangout thing, that might be different.

[funkinbottom]

In my 35 years or so of playing, I've been fortunate to be able to spend many of those years making my living from playing music. Over the years I've found myself in the same position as the OP, more than once. IME, it seems the only fix (for me personally anyway) was one of three options.

1. Booking Agent - As mentioned earlier, 80% of good $ better than crap $.

2. Fire BL - This option involves band decision, and someone stepping up as new BL. Also replacing what ever instrument BL played.

3. Quit band - Move on. On a couple occasions, within week or so most of the other members left and we reformed group, got a booking agent and went on to make good money. $200 - $300 each a night.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

I did read the entire post and wasn't trying to be as you put it "snarky". I agree that experienced players can often manage to play well without rehearsing much. I have done shows where I also made many times more than $100 just by showing up and not rehearsing with the entire band but that is the exception. The fact is that the more the band rehearses the better they become. When people put a band together and one of the first criteria is that they don't want to rehearse often, then in my opinion, they are not really committed to the project. The more they rehearse, the better they will become and they will be able to get better paying gigs. Even the most accomplished professionals rehearse prior to going on tour even though they have played the songs thousands of time. It is fairly obvious when a band doesn't rehearse very much. If you want to get higher paying gigs you must work hard to be better than the other bands in your area. There are no short cuts.

I think you guys are talking about at least 2 different levels of bands or musicians.

I think the fact is the better bands (established, heavily booked and are making the high end bucks) and musicians are not bands that need to rehearse a lot. They have above average talent and have a good business model. I've never been in a band at this level but I know of them.

Then there are bands with marginal musicians, low resource levels, marginal material and armature business tactics and ethics. These are the bands that spend a lot of time in rehearsals that at the end of the day lead them nowhere.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by obimark

IME for covers bands, once a set list has been agreed on, and all the tunes are down, NO band needs to practice more than every other week, and a gig could take the place of practice. Unless you are just not very good and can't remember the material.

Now if it is a "social" hangout thing, that might be different.

+1

Unless your in start up mode or tweaking new material, if your rehearsing more than once every other week, the band has other problems that need to be addressed.

For those auditioning for established bands, covers or originals (but particularly originals bands) and they tell you they rehearse twice a week, that should be a "red flag".

blue

[Munjibunga]

Are you asking if you should throw good money after bad?

[Flyingfrets]

Originally Posted by derrico1

OTOH, we get a lot of GB events through agency bookings, which tend to pay reasonably well. The agency bookings also have greater reach. One GB cover band I sub in gets regular work from NY to South Carolina. (Yesterday was their first Saturday off since April.) The BL is pretty together and driven, but he wouldn't be able to draw nearly as many regional gigs w/o booking help.

This has been our experience as well (similar cicuit - we've done Boston to Orlando through our current agency).

The 40+ shows we've done this year were between January & August (been sidelined due to drummer's injuries since August 23), so yes, the agencies will keep you busy (they're not making money if you're not), but you'd better be able to deliver a show paying patrons want to see...which all goes back to the right material (which has been well rehearsed), preparation and a professional attitude.

The "greater reach" you mentioned will also apply to your reputation if you drop the ball.

[Itzayana]

At least you are hooked up with players who want to play.
I am in two bands. One of them only gigs about twice a month and never ever rehearses.
No one wants to play other than on stage. We are never better than the time before. It drives me nuts that I am the only player in this particular group who even practices at home.
It is frustrating and I am often embarrassed.
Worst thing is that I feel like a slut because I keep playing with these guys for no other reason than $$.
I am about to head off for a Sunday afternoon gig with them...
Oh well!

[Rockbassist4]

Originally Posted by bluewine

I think you guys are talking about at least 2 different levels of bands or musicians.

I think the fact is the better bands (established, heavily booked and are making the high end bucks) and musicians are not bands that need to rehearse a lot. They have above average talent and a good business model. I've never been in a band at this level but I know of them.

Then there are bands with marginal musicians, low resource levels, marginal material and armature business tactics and ethics. These are the bands that spend a lot of time in rehearsals that at the end of the day lead them nowhere.

Good points. I am going to agree with you and Kmonk on the overall argument. If bands do not spend the time to rehearse they may never know how good they can be or realize their potential. I also don't understand why anyone would join a band and not want to rehearse. Its one thing to be a hired gun and do in fill in work. Its another to be part of a band.