Anybody else feel the need to Crack the Whip, musically?

Rusty the Scoob · #1 02-15-2011, 10:23 AM

By default I've appointed myself the band's Musical Hardass. Everybody does their homework and comes on time and prepared to the gigs. We don't rehearse so there are no problems there.... the issues I'm compelled to bring up are more musical and/or personal in nature.

Mostly it's the keyboard player... great chops, great energy, but his time is terrible. Really he can't string two equal eighth notes together to save his life. Buddy Rich would have shot him and either James Brown or Miles Davis would have thrown him off the bus while it was still moving in my opinion. But I'm stuck trying to help him.... I can't suggest we fire him because my GF is also a good keyboard player and sings backups in the band (and fills-in on keys sometimes) so it would look bad if I did that...

So how do you help someone who doesn't even know they have a time problem? Assuming a not-so-gentle e-mail or two didn't help...

electracoyote · #2 02-15-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty the Scoob

I can't suggest we fire him because my GF is also a good keyboard player and sings backups in the band (and fills-in on keys sometimes) so it would look bad if I did that...

You can suggest auditioning for his replacement.

But first you have to see who's with you on the issue of his shortcomings.

If everyone else agrees he's a liability, and you don't have a fraternal bond with him, why keep him in the band?

Of course, he deserves to hear your (collective) grievances and a chance to straighten out his timing.

If he can't fix it, replace him.

LaklandBass · #3 02-15-2011, 10:34 AM

I had a friend like that in an old band. From what I found there are only two personallity types when dealing with this sort of thing.
Either A: He'll realize that you're right and take an effort to fix it.
or theres B: He'll take it personally and get raging mad.

If option A happens.... let him try to work it out
If option B happens.... ask for support from the other members and kick him out

They say that when it comes to music some people "have it" and others do not... however sometimes a person that doesnt "have it" can play long enough that they get serious chops... but all youre really left with is an amateur player.

All the bells and wistles in the world can be there but those are wants... not needs... and if you dont have what you need you should look elsewhere.

azureblue · #4 02-15-2011, 10:50 AM

a recording. Record the band. Listen to it with him, ask him if he hears his timing issues. point them out. If he doesn't hear problems dump him. If he does hear the problem, then tell him to practice with a metronome, and record his practices, so he can listen to his progress. And Ask him what he intends to do to fix his timing issues.

My two cents is this- not being able to play the groove and stay in time is just as bad as missing chords and notes. Sorry, but you may have to be hardass about this. it could be that he has not ever listened to his playing in a recording, or he doesn't listen to the rest of the band (most likely). But in any case, he's got to step up.

sobie18 · #5 02-15-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azureblue

a recording. Record the band. Listen to it with him, ask him if he hears his timing issues. point them out. If he doesn't hear problems dump him. If he does hear the problem, then tell him to practice with a metronome, and record his practices, so he can listen to his progress. And Ask him what he intends to do to fix his timing issues.

My two cents is this- not being able to play the groove and stay in time is just as bad as missing chords and notes. Sorry, but you may have to be hardass about this. it could be that he has not ever listened to his playing in a recording, or he doesn't listen to the rest of the band (most likely). But in any case, he's got to step up.

I think he nailed it here with some reasonable & sound advice.

Rusty the Scoob · #6 02-15-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azureblue

or he doesn't listen to the rest of the band (most likely).

I think you hit it here. Good advice about collecting recordings... we are very dilligent about it since we're Deadheads. Our guitar player and/or I get a recording of every show, I distribute it internally, and I also share the best ones with the public. It's a LOT of work and lately I can't even stand to listen to us anymore because of his playing.

That brings me to a question... can someone with bad time recognize bad time on a recording?

avvie · #7 02-15-2011, 11:16 AM

I'm in two bands, and being forced to be the director/hardass because everybody is stoned in one band and everyone has one single fatal talent flaw in the other.

...and then I think "f**k it, at least we're gigging, and I got some bill money...."

azureblue · #8 02-15-2011, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty the Scoob

I think you hit it here. Good advice about collecting recordings... we are very diligent about it since we're Deadheads. Our guitar player and/or I get a recording of every show, I distribute it internally, and I also share the best ones with the public. It's a LOT of work and lately I can't even stand to listen to us anymore because of his playing.

That brings me to a question... can someone with bad time recognize bad time on a recording?

I have met a few players that have no concept of time or groove, and they are basically "groove deaf". Some can hear it, when it is pointed out in terms of syncing with the B&D, but others are clueless. If he can't hear bad timing on a recording, he sure can't hear it when he is playing. If you point it out, and he still can't hear it, then, well, he needs to get the basics in order. You can always try recording him and the bass and drums in practice, then playing that back, but if he still doesn't hear it, then he's a lost cause. Really, beyond that, there is nothing you can do.

Gawd, what does he do on "Truckin" or "Casey Jones", two great GD laid back groove tunes?

Marko5657 · #9 02-15-2011, 03:03 PM

Maybe it’s not a lack of timing, but just his style. Keyboard players don’t always consider themselves as part of the rhythm section,

He has a good bio on the band site; what do the other members say about it, if anything?

Can you an example from your site where he’s playing poorly?

Marko5657 · #10 02-15-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avvie

I'm in two bands, and being forced to be the director/hardass because everybody is stoned in one band and everyone has one single fatal talent flaw in the other.

...and then I think "f**k it, at least we're gigging, and I got some bill money...."

Rusty the Scoob · #11 02-16-2011, 07:58 AM

Maybe I'm overreacting, I don't know. It's most obvious on soundboard recordings like these where he's really prominent in the mix:

http://www.mediafire.com/?n1xn9d2d1zxoszw

http://www.mediafire.com/?ms958co5sn46l5h

electracoyote · #12 02-16-2011, 08:07 AM

I only had time to listen to the first track of the first clip ("Enjoying The Ride").

I really didn't hear anything alarming.

klokker · #13 02-16-2011, 01:16 PM

Maybe this doesn't apply to your situation, but here's how we fixed a guitar player who seemed to have no beat.

The rest of just got together and made damn sure that we were super tight. We just fricken refused to let this guy dictate tempo.

What was going on was that all of us were trying to compensate for his lack of groove. We just said screw it, we're going to play like he isn't there.

It worked. He had to adjust. It was so obvious. Sometimes everybody just has to step it up a bit.

jaywa · #14 02-16-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klokker

Maybe this doesn't apply to your situation, but here's how we fixed a guitar player who seemed to have no beat.

The rest of just got together and made damn sure that we were super tight. We just fricken refused to let this guy dictate tempo.

What was going on was that all of us were trying to compensate for his lack of groove. We just said screw it, we're going to play like he isn't there.

It worked. He had to adjust. It was so obvious. Sometimes everybody just has to step it up a bit.

This is not a terrible approach... and may be the only viable option if you're in a market where a replacement keyboardist would be difficult or impossible to come by. If you are bound and determined to remove him then make damn sure you either have a good replacement on the line or are prepared to go sans keys indefinitely.

DWBass · #15 02-16-2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty the Scoob

Mostly it's the keyboard player... great chops, great energy, but his time is terrible. Really he can't string two equal eighth notes together to save his life. Buddy Rich would have shot him and either James Brown or Miles Davis would have thrown him off the bus while it was still moving in my opinion. So how do you help someone who doesn't even know they have a time problem? Assuming a not-so-gentle e-mail or two didn't help...

OMG, you too? How does that happen? Great player but zero timing! Add to that a drummer who's on his own mission which does not include locking in with the bass player! Ugh! The 2 of them are wearing me out!

tripp2k · #16 02-16-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty the Scoob

We don't rehearse so there are no problems there

I think there is a problem.

ahc · #17 02-16-2011, 02:15 PM

Send him Jeff Berlin's metronome. I'm sure he's not using it.

Rusty the Scoob · #18 02-16-2011, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripp2k

I think there is a problem.

Full band rehearsal is heavily overrated. If everyone is committed to doing their homework on new tunes and knows each other well musically, the results are a lot better than throwing 5 unprepared hacks in a room for a few hours and hoping something decent comes out.

At any rate, getting the band together's not going to fix anybody's individual timing, you know?

von buck · #19 02-16-2011, 02:39 PM

I have to be. In my band, people confuse "rehearsal" with "learning the songs"

Marko5657 · #20 02-16-2011, 03:08 PM

I know we do rehearsals. We do covers, but the guitar player (most live-band experienced) geeks the songs up pretty good so they’re more dynamic than the original, extra accents, starts, ending, lots of vocals/harmonies to be figured out…

Then I record it (we rehearse in my studio), burn and pass out CDs for individual practice before we hit it on the stage.

As for learning songs at rehearsals, drives me goofy sometimes, but often someone gets a bright idea for a new song and we put it together right there, record it, etc. I’ll just do something safe, or something similar to what I remember, or guitar player gives me something he likes... then the next day (or whenever) I’ll figure out how I want to actually play it.

Hey, whatever works.