Anyone else run into this?

NicJimBass · #1 08-05-2009, 12:45 PM

[Rant on]

I've been emailing back and forth with a local cover band about setting up an audition with them. First, I had issues with just setting up a time and a song list to audition. All they sent me was when and where they were playing so I could check them out, and an entire set list. Fair enough, I hear these guys are somewhat old-school and perhaps I misunderstood... I guess they wanted me to audition during a show, but they never said anything of the sort, so I guess I'm supposed to know these things.

I finally nail down a list of songs to learn and a time and place to audition. I get to learning the songs, one of which I was finding a bit tricky to nail exactly (more specifically, the pre-verse bass lick in Evenflow by Pearl Jam... not complex, but fast and kinda tricky to me). Anyway, they have a myspace page that has their rendition of the song posted. I listen, and start playing along, and... what? That doesn't sound right... ohhhhh.... they're playing a half-step lower than the recordings! I get it!

So basically, had I not listened to their recordings, I would've never known that they play like this. It's not a big deal other than the fact that getting info from these guys is like pulling teeth. I'm soooo close to just calling it all off, but I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, and hey, it's a paying gig, AFAIK, so I want to at least try. Anyone else run into this?

[Rant off]

denhou1974 · #2 08-05-2009, 12:51 PM

That happened to me once at a sub gig. Since then I always ask about tunings and songs keys before I play with a sub-gig or audition.

A few months ago I did a sub gig with this band. I bugged them for 1 week trying to get a songlist from them. Finally I sent my 'songs I know' list to them. Their response: "Cool. We'll make it work". The gig went very well. Go figure.

billhilly66 · #3 08-05-2009, 01:05 PM

I did an audition once where they’d given me a list of tunes with the keys. When we kicked off the first tune, it became glaringly apparent that they were a half step lower than I was. I said “Sorry, I thought this tune would be in E” they said “It is but we tune down a half step” Hmmm……..

I tuned down, went through the audition material, thanked them for the audition, then went home and sent them an email thanking them again but telling them I wasn’t interested in pursuing the deal.

NicJimBass · #4 08-05-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billhilly66

I did an audition once where they’d given me a list of tunes with the keys. When we kicked off the first tune, it became glaringly apparent that they were a half step lower than I was. I said “Sorry, I thought this tune would be in E” they said “It is but we tune down a half step” Hmmm……..

I tuned down, went through the audition material, thanked them for the audition, then went home and sent them an email thanking them again but telling them I wasn’t interested in pursuing the deal.

I have a feeling this'll happen when I audition.

I guess I'll learn the songs, memorize the patterns as opposed to the tones of the notes, and then tune down a half-step when I go in.

NicJimBass · #5 08-06-2009, 09:36 PM

So, had the audition tonight, and it actually went pretty good. The guys are cool and the music is stuff I dig, so I'm happy. Should hear in the next week if I got it.

Funny thing though- we were laying a song I had not practiced for this audition, but it was a song I played in my last band, so I knew it. With the 1/2 step down-tuning, I was all out of whack (tuned to C# standard, as most of the songs were in drop D, then tuned down a half-step.... I never understood the whole "tune the E string lower than the rest" mentality, so instead of drop-C#, I go C# standard... confused yet?). Anyway, I ask what key it's in, to which guitarist answers "G". I have no clue where G is at the moment, so I ask him to play it, and find it in a second. Cool. So we're playing and I glance at my tuner... when I'm playing "G" it says "F#"....***? I start playing in actual G and it's off. It didn't dawn on me til the drive home that he thinks/ says he's playing G, but since they tune down a half-step, he's actually playing F#, even if it's the shape of a G chord or whatever. Why can't people just play in standard E tuning? Jeez...lol.

Bluesy Soul · #6 08-07-2009, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NicJimBass

So, had the audition tonight, and it actually went pretty good. The guys are cool and the music is stuff I dig, so I'm happy. Should hear in the next week if I got it.

Funny thing though- we were laying a song I had not practiced for this audition, but it was a song I played in my last band, so I knew it. With the 1/2 step down-tuning, I was all out of whack (tuned to C# standard, as most of the songs were in drop D, then tuned down a half-step.... I never understood the whole "tune the E string lower than the rest" mentality, so instead of drop-C#, I go C# standard... confused yet?). Anyway, I ask what key it's in, to which guitarist answers "G". I have no clue where G is at the moment, so I ask him to play it, and find it in a second. Cool. So we're playing and I glance at my tuner... when I'm playing "G" it says "F#"....***? I start playing in actual G and it's off. It didn't dawn on me til the drive home that he thinks/ says he's playing G, but since they tune down a half-step, he's actually playing F#, even if it's the shape of a G chord or whatever. Why can't people just play in standard E tuning? Jeez...lol.

If you exchange .mp3s and CDs to learn songs--as most bands do these days--you will have constant issues learning songs in one key and then playing them in another position.

Good luck.

Bluesy Soul

Dave Vader · #7 08-07-2009, 04:28 AM

This is not the worst situation ever, i was once asked to sub for a band on guitar, and was sent a tape to learn their songs from. There was no practise session, just straight to the gig, where it turned out the synth player was using his 4-track tape machine for backing tapes. Made me laugh a bit, but no problem i thought, as I had to tune the bass players bass...
So we got up there, and his backing tapes are slightly out of tune, could have been worse, I did a bit of Hendrix on-stage mid song tuning, and all was well again. Til the next song...
Also slightly out of tune from the last one, somebody didn't know how to set their pitch wheel when they recorded their backing tracks. More mid song tuning and much hilarity from under my very big hat. Luckily the tape machine died a death just before the 3rd song. Proper rubbish set up, wouldn't have minded if we hadn't been opening for the Damned and the Stranglers at the time, and I would have liked to make a good impression, rather than leg it as quick as I could hoping nobody recognised me.

Joe Nerve · #8 08-07-2009, 04:59 AM

Your C, C#, Drop D stuff confused me, but it sounds to me like the band just tunes everything down a half step, which is pretty common. Makes it easier (supposedly) on the singer. While I'm sure some have done this, I never heard of dropping just the E string a half step. Why the drop tuning would be a deal breaker, as Bill said it was for him, I don't understand.

Sounds to me also like their initial response was leaving the ball in your court and telling you to learn whatever you want. Some people have been at this a while and could jump in pretty much knowing everything. If I didn't know any of the material I'd learn 4 songs perfectly and worry about the rest afterwards if I got the gig.

**IvanMike** · #9 08-07-2009, 08:07 AM

lots of software is available now that can alter the tuning of a recorded tune if you need that to practice.

when tuned down a half step, it is customary to call keys as they would be if tuned in standard. (e.g., tuned down to Eb, cold shot would be called a song in "A")

NicJimBass · #10 08-07-2009, 12:13 PM

Let me say that I'm not complaining at all about this situation. It's simply one I've never dealt with before, and as such, it's all Greek to me.

Yes, they tune down a half-step to accomadate the singer, which I've heard is common.

I didn't realize that when tuning down, calling the same key is common. Seems kinda odd, as you're technically not in that key... or perhaps my incredible knowledge of music theory is showing itself!

It's not a dealbreaker to have to play this way, it's simply odd to me. I've always played pretty straightforward. The last band I was in had a singer that had a pretty high range, so we played pretty much everything as recorded (we did have to play 'Josie" by the Outfield a half step down occasionally, but that song is a ball-buster).

As far as my confusing tuning goes, I'll try to explain it a little clearer....

Most of the songs they play are drop D-type songs.... actually D standard (D,G,C,F), so from standard tuning, I'm already tuned down a full step. So, when I learned the songs, I did so in D tuning; but then when we played them at the audition, I tuned down another half-step to C# standard (C#, F#, B,E) so that I could play the songs in the same positions that I learned them, but I was still doing the half-step down tuning that they follow. I had a hard time hearing the guitarist (first time that's ever happened!), but I was still able to bust everything out.

After all that thought and work, I think I'll simply learn everything on one of my 5'rs and simple move down a fret when we play them... or maybe tune up a half step, learn the songs, then.... oh never mind.

NicJimBass · #11 08-07-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

Your C, C#, Drop D stuff confused me, but it sounds to me like the band just tunes everything down a half step, which is pretty common. Makes it easier (supposedly) on the singer. While I'm sure some have done this, I never heard of dropping just the E string a half step. Why the drop tuning would be a deal breaker, as Bill said it was for him, I don't understand.

Sounds to me also like their initial response was leaving the ball in your court and telling you to learn whatever you want. Some people have been at this a while and could jump in pretty much knowing everything. If I didn't know any of the material I'd learn 4 songs perfectly and worry about the rest afterwards if I got the gig.

There was a thread recently explaining the wole altered tuning thing. There are 2 main types, drop tuning and standard tuning. Drop tuning involves tuning the lowest string lower than the others. For instance, Drop-D would be D,A,D,G. D Standard would be D,G,C,F, where all the string are tuned lower, but at the same interval. I'm with you... I don't know why people would drop just one string, but apparently they do.

**IvanMike** · #12 08-07-2009, 04:59 PM

drop d has been around a long time. if you have a fiver you almost never have to. some tunes just sound crazy heavy with the drop d.

also, it's almost more of a guitar thing as they get to play chords a bit differently and get an unusual sound.

good example is queen's fat bottomed girls.

NicJimBass · #13 08-07-2009, 09:39 PM

Well, I just discovered the joys of the program "Transcribe!"! I was able to modify each song to be a half-step down, and save each one as an AIFF file, which goes right onto the ipod. No mre screwing around with different tunings and whatnot. Now I can hear what I need to play, and that's that.

NicJimBass · #14 08-10-2009, 03:02 PM

Alright, so I need some help, and perhaps some clarification on my end.

I'm still emailing back and forth with this guitarist, and it's like beating my head against a wall. It could very well be my lack of understanding, so I'm not bashing this guy at all, simply trying to understand what's going wrong.

He tells me they learn the songs as they're recorded, but then when they play or rehearse, the tune down 1/2 step to save the singers voice. No problem, I simply decided to skip the middle man, and learn the songs a half-step down from the original recording... simple enough, right? He keeps insisting that they don't learn the songs that way, and now is saying that I simply need to forget the half-step tuning and learn the songs as they are recorded. Every song we played during the audition were 1/2 step down from the recordings. For instance, Tool's Sober is usually played in drop D, I had to tune to C# for the lowest note in the song.

I'm not sure what to do now... I've been practicing the songs a half-step down, but he insists they learn them in the original tuning. What am I missing here???

JustDavid · #15 08-10-2009, 04:05 PM

My guess is "skipping the middleman" is creating the confusion: you do & they don't.

What I guess they do is:
1/ tune normally (EADG, DADG, or whatever)
2/ play the CD & play along with it, repeat until song is known
3/ detune all strings 1/2 step
4/ play the song as a band.

Thoughts?

NicJimBass · #16 08-10-2009, 04:53 PM

My thoughts are that I want to do this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustDavid

1/ tune down
2/ play the CD & play along with it, repeat until song is known
3/ play the song as a band.

The thing is, I play by ear, and while detuning only for playing live may seem like no big deal, I count on my ear to get me out of a jam sometimes. If all I've listened to is the original recording, that's what I'll have in my head when I play.

troy mcclure · #17 08-10-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustDavid

My guess is "skipping the middleman" is creating the confusion: you do & they don't.

What I guess they do is:
1/ tune normally (EADG, DADG, or whatever)
2/ play the CD & play along with it, repeat until song is known
3/ detune all strings 1/2 step
4/ play the song as a band.

Thoughts?

This is exactly what I do.... what the guitarist is trying to avoid is saying I play E you play Eb...I have played with a few bands that tune down and it is always easier to talk about the songs in their normal key as if you are not tuned down and tune down....

JustDavid · #18 08-10-2009, 05:13 PM

If you are hard-wired that way, unless you can find some sort of "slow down" software this band setup might not work for you. I'd suggest you try it, as I don't see this being a rare situation.

JustDavid · #19 08-10-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troy mcclure

This is exactly what I do.... what the guitarist is trying to avoid is saying I play E you play Eb...I have played with a few bands that tune down and it is always easier to talk about the songs in their normal key as if you are not tuned down and tune down....

It is easier when you are talking 'chord fingering shapes' (for want of a better term). But, though easier, I feel it's still wrong: Eb is Eb & not E.

I don't think you & I really disagree on this. I think the disagreement lies idle until someone (a "shape-ist" guitarist) says to play an E (meaning "this band's E") then hollers at someone for playing an E.

Bassmingo · #20 08-10-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troy mcclure

This is exactly what I do.... what the guitarist is trying to avoid is saying I play E you play Eb...I have played with a few bands that tune down and it is always easier to talk about the songs in their normal key as if you are not tuned down and tune down....

also what i do, and is done the world over by millions of (possibly) self taught bassists.